How important is to transcribe jazz solos?

[Christian Miller]

Back in my day, everything was “hip” and “killin” but I’m old now.

you dinosaur

[lawson-stone]

Your other problem is when you get caught out you behave like a three year-old.

Are you off your meds or something? that's just a cheap shot and not even true. CM is one of the most substantive, helpful contributors we have on this forum and he actually plays well, and is playing professionally, out there earning it every day. More than I can say for myself and quite a few others.

[Christian Miller]

I used to run a night in Kilburn. Guess what we called it!

[pamosmusic]

I used to run a night in Kilburn. Guess what we called it!

I wouldn’t dare ……

[lawson-stone]

(snip)
Jazz musicians have always ‘transcribed’ but haven’t alway as used that term to describe what they are doing. It seems likely someone was looking for a fancy Big Education word to represent the process and they chose that one.

(snip)

Or maybe someone was just thinking "what is this whole thing we do where we learn stuff other guys play, maybe write it out... what do we call that?" Then somebody put his beer down and said "Well, it's kind of like a court recorder or somebody who gets things word for word, why not "transcription"?

Maybe it was a more informal thing where that word, with all it's imprecisions, ended up being a pretty good label for a chunk of activities that a lot of jazz players engage in in one form or another.

I realize (a) this is way to simple and (b) it lacks entirely any backhand slaps at Big Education or Big Academia, in fact, it lacks any sinister vibes at all, which I realize is a shortcoming.

[rpjazzguitar]

We can say “it’s very important for an aspiring jazz musician to get comfortable learning music by ear from recordings. This might initially mean the melodies of songs, and later chord progressions and probably solos as they get more experienced.”

simple, clear and true.

"Comfortable" is a high bar for harmony for me. After listening a zillion times to a sequence of chords that are hard to hear on a busy (muddy) recording, I'm not comfortable. And, it's hard to imagine that I would get comfortable.

That said, on the bandstand you have to be able to process what you hear. So how are you going to practice that?

I end up thinking about long technical articles I've read dissecting the opening chord to Hard Day's Night.

[BreckerFan]

Why not indeed?

the answer my dear boy, Americans. For as much as they stereotype us as overly verbose, Americans love an impressive sounding Latin rooted bit of terminology.

To be honest it’s a miracle no one says they ‘transcriberized’ a solo. ;-)

Hey I really don't care what word you use! I think we're all wasting our time arguing about definitions rather than actually going and transcribing (or learning by ear or whatever, idc).

I just get annoyed when someone comes along with a "well akshully" take that someone isn't "really" transcribing because they didn't write it down. Writing it down isn't the most important thing about doing it! And I say that as someone who writes all my transcriptions out. If forced to chose between the two tho, I'd say you get way more out of spending an hour playing a memorized solo along with a record than spending that hour perfectly notating it.

[Christian Miller]

Or maybe someone was just thinking "what is this whole thing we do where we learn stuff other guys play, maybe write it out... what do we call that?" Then somebody put his beer down and said "Well, it's kind of like a court recorder or somebody who gets things word for word, why not "transcription"?

Maybe it was a more informal thing where that word, with all it's imprecisions, ended up being a pretty good label for a chunk of activities that a lot of jazz players engage in in one form or another.

I realize (a) this is way to simple and (b) it lacks entirely any backhand slaps at Big Education or Big Academia, in fact, it lacks any sinister vibes at all, which I realize is a shortcoming.

Haha I don’t think I’m really having a pop at Big Jazz Edu (although that is always fun) bur rather just a bit of context.

I’m amazed at the number of people who are wedded to this term when I think I’ve shown it’s quite easy to avoid using it… ah well… just to be clear I do not judge those who choose to use the T word haha

[Christian Miller]

Hey I really don't care what word you use! I think we're all wasting our time arguing about definitions rather than actually going and transcribing (or learning by ear or whatever, idc).

the very fact that people are arguing about the meaning is a fairly clear reason to avoid using the word when explaining things, unless it’s really clear what is meant - for example ‘here’s my transcription of a Brecker solo.’

as far as I know no one has made an argument refuting this in particular, so I think it’s a sensible point.

I just get annoyed when someone comes along with a "well akshully" take that someone isn't "really" transcribing because they didn't write it down.

100%

Writing it down isn't the most important thing about doing it! And I say that as someone who writes all my transcriptions out. If forced to chose between the two tho, I'd say you get way more out of spending an hour playing a memorized solo along with a record than spending that hour perfectly notating it.

Well that’s really clearly put… and agreed. I think it’s good to try different approaches.

If you haven’t tried it, here’s one that might interest. Approximate ear learning is a good one - listen to a solo at full speed and approximate it best you can. Then without slowing down try to improve your accuracy.

Not as a replacement to slowed down detailed work - but it was suggested to me by a very good musician, and one benefit of this is it’s more Iike how things are in performance - it’s good to get used to hearing lines at full speed. And hearing things in anal detail is less critical - it can be enough to hear the gesture, general harmony or shape of a fast run as a comper for example. Obviously you are not making a transcription in this case, just singing and/or playing.

anyway there’s loads of ways of doing it… I think it’s good to mix it up.

[mr. beaumont]

Everyone should say "cop licks," because it makes you sound like a real cool old school jazz cat.

[Christian Miller]

Everyone should say "cop licks," because it makes you sound like a real cool old school jazz cat.

isn’t another term ‘lifting’?

[pamosmusic]

Everyone should say "cop licks," because it makes you sound like a real cool old school jazz cat.

I would hate to see what the Dictionary Crowd would do with that one.

[Christian Miller]

"Comfortable" is a high bar for harmony for me. After listening a zillion times to a sequence of chords that are hard to hear on a busy (muddy) recording, I'm not comfortable. And, it's hard to imagine that I would get comfortable.

That said, on the bandstand you have to be able to process what you hear. So how are you going to practice that?

By working stuff out by ear regularly every day. Doesn’t have to be masses, just a voicing or two, or a rough chord progression from a standard or something. The aim is not necessarily to get it perfectly right btw - don’t get stuck. The aim is to do a bit every day.

Focus on the inputs, not the outcome.

Some chords stick out like a sore thumb, dim7s and 7#11s for instance. Very distinctive flavours. And I’m sure you can sing the roots of a ii V I and a I Vi ii V and listen out for them. After that it’s a matter of increasing your repertoire so to speak.

I end up thinking about long technical articles I've read dissecting the opening chord to Hard Day's Night.

Ta Barney Kessel voicing, say, will be a lot easier to puzzle out as it’s on one familiar instrument.

[BreckerFan]

I'm not making any authoritative statement of my own, I'm saying what's wrong with the ones given. Not the same thing.

Well but you did make an authoritative statement. You said "Transcribe means to set it down in a format other than merely hearing it." What is your substantiation for that claim?

I don't think you understood what I was arguing. I'm not saying that the internet transcription guys (myself included) or Christian's student are "right" based on any intrinsic authority they have. I'm saying that the meaning is determined by how the word is used in context, and all of the people I cited do not use it to only mean notating music. The word therefore does not mean notate music in this context, because that's not how it's used in this context.

I'm not really interested in litigating this any further. I think I'll take my own advice and do something more productive with my time haha.

[djg]

the very fact that people are arguing about the meaning is a fairly clear reason to avoid using the word .

why not just avoid those people.

[kris]

Recently, I only listen to records in an analytical way and I don't do transcriptions of musicians' solos.

[jameslovestal]

So can the argument in this thread be solved (in practical terms) by restating it to: “How important is it to learn jazz solos by ear?”, in which case I would say “it can be pretty useful” and others can agree or disagree.

But many of us don't only learn 'by ear' (which for this purpose is listening to someone playing a passage). E.g. For fast paced bebop heads, I use a combination of 'by ear' with a transcription. In general terms, the transcription provides what music notation revels (e.g. the notes and their length), and the 'by ear' the things musical notation can't provide (or provide very well).

Some of my friends, who can't read music just learn 'by ear' but they have software that can slow the music way down. Since I don't have that type of software, a transcription is helpful.

[ragman1]

Well but you did make an authoritative statement. You said "Transcribe means to set it down in a format other than merely hearing it." What is your substantiation for that claim?

No more, it's over. This has become a stupid conversation for people who talk too much because they've got nothing better to do.

In future I'll look for the specific meaning within the particular context. And curl my lip if it means anything other than what the word actually means. My own view is that any other meaning has been invented by those who like to sound as though they're part of the gang but in fact lack the necessary means to notate solos properly.

And it's goodnight from him :-)

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] Since I don't have that type of software, a transcription is helpful.

Youtube videos can be slowed down. If you click on the settings button (gearwheel symbol in the lower right corner) you get several options for playback speed. If you are on a computer you can use the left and right arrow keys to rewind and fast-forward the track. (Arrows up and down are for volume BTW.)

[Christian Miller]

No more, it's over. This has become a stupid conversation for people who talk too much because they've got nothing better to do.

Wrong! I have better things to do. I’m just avoiding them.

[Christian Miller]

why not just avoid those people.

because this is what I do for entertainment

I hate myself

[pamosmusic]

No more, it's over. This has become a stupid conversation for people who talk too much because they've got nothing better to do.

… he said, dread creeping into his voice, as the realization dawned on him that he’d become one of the very people he loathed most.

DUN DUN DUN.

My own view is that any other meaning has been invented by those who like to sound as though they're part of the gang but in fact lack the necessary means to notate solos properly.

I mean … sure. Cool.

[Christian Miller]

… he said, dread creeping into his voice, as the realization dawned on him that he’d become one of the very people he loathed most.

DUN DUN DUN.

"No! I must kill the demons," he shouted!
The radio said "No, Rag. You are the demons."
And then, Rag was a Zombie.

[Litterick]

For what it is worth, here are are some passages from Mark Tucker's essay on Transcription in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, published in 1988 by Macmillan in London and by St. Martins' Press in New York.

Page 1213

Transcription (i). In jazz the act of fixing in notated form music that is entirely or partly improvised, or for which no written score exists; also the resulting notated version itself. The term is also applied to the traditional practice of memorizing and reproducing a recorded improvisation without necessarily notating it. It should not be confused with Transcription (ii), the process of copying sound from one source to another, or Transcription (iii), a type of sound recording. This article deals with the principles, purposes, techniques, and history of transcription and discusses its value as a means of disseminating jazz and as a tool for studying it.
...

2. Techniques and applications. Transcription as practiced by jazz musicians is usually a self-taught skill. There are no fixed rules for transcribing jazz, nor is there a standard set of symbols used to indicate pitch inflection, articulation, rhythmic deviation, and other expressive devices. Transcription is merely an extension of the technique, learned by every music student, of taking aural dictation, in which it is necessary to listen accurately, to construe analytically, and to notate. Repetition is an integral part of the process; accordingly, tape recorders are generally easier to work with than record players, and reel-to-reel machines offer more flexibility than do cassette players. Variable speed settings and a graphic equalizer may assist the transcriber to perceive rapid passages and cloudy textures.

Page 1214

3. History. While many professional jazz musicians regard transcription as an integral part of their own education, few have discussed the transcribing process in any detail (though Andrew White presents an account of his approach to the subject in A Treatise on Transcription, 1978); writers on jazz have also largely passed over the subject. As a result the history of jazz transcription still awaits fuller documentation and can be suggested only in broad outline. The informal process of transcribing jazz - copying solos or individual parts from recordings - probably began as soon as the latter became available, in the late 1910s. Even earlier, players had engaged in the same activity as they strove to emulate what they heard others perform in clubs, cabarets, and dance halls, at parades, and on riverboats. Recordings, however, made it easier for musicians to absorb other ideas and techniques, and at least one major figure, Freddie Keppard, supposedly resisted making them for fear that rivals would steal his tricks.

From the 1920s professional jazz musicians have used the transcribing process to learn from other professionals. When Charlie Parker, at the age of 16, worked in the band led by George E. Lee, he reportedly played solos taken from recordings made by Lester Young. (David Baker, at Indiana University, and other contemporary jazz educators maintain the tradition when they require students to memorize improvisations by Young, Parker, Armstrong, and other outstanding soloists.)

[RLetson]

Should blind musicians transcribe solos?* Asking for a friend. I'll, um, see myself out.

* I know, Braille notation. But what about Turlough O'Carolan?