How important is to transcribe jazz solos?

[rpjazzguitar]

Learning by ear rather than from a chart has the following major advantage:

On the jazz bandstand, you need to be able to react to what other people are playing. To do that you have to "know" (in some way, whether by name, sound or both) what's going on. And, you have to contribute something. And, if what others are playing is in the chart, it's not really jazz, in my view.

It seems to me that learning music by ear helps train that ability more than reading charts would. Although, if you read enough charts, sooner or later, the sounds are going to seep in.

Of course, there are other advantages to learning by ear -- and plenty of benefits from reading too.

[Christian Miller]

Here’s an interesting one - Evan Marien learns Tigran Himasyan’s mind boggling music by ear

goes in deeper

[Reg]

Sort of silly... isn't it. If your playing jazz...even if your a beginner.

I'm not trying to knock your post Peter.... your one of the posters that I tend to check out and not just shake my head.

But... this thread has been pretty useless for jazz players... Post some examples of your transcriptions of Hall's stella...

That would be great example of transcription usefulness.

I know if your going to... talk the talk then walk the walk. I'll start posting something later, I have one more job... today.

[st.bede]

The resistance to change ( conservatism , reaction ) is part of the dialectic momentum of progress itself ( vide Adorno and Honkheimer's Dialectic of Enlightenment )

therefore , reactionaries are the true progressives

quod erat demonstrandum

I would think that such a statement is equivocating on the word progressive. I also think we might be bumping up against the problem of not being able to falsify a statement. However I am not familiar with Adorno or Horkheimer’s understanding the dialectic process, so I might not be seeing the whole argument.

[pamosmusic]

Sort of silly... isn't it. If your playing jazz...even if your a beginner.

I'm not trying to knock your post Peter.... your one of the posters that I tend to check out and not just shake my head.

But... this thread has been pretty useless for jazz players... Post some examples of your transcriptions of Hall's stella...

That would be great example of transcription usefulness.

I know if your going to... talk the talk then walk the walk. I'll start posting something later, I have one more job... today.

Lol. Okay. I’ve posted plenty of videos of my playing. I’ll post the Jim Hall sometime but that time is not now. I also have one more job … today.

For my own edification … which post are we talking about here? I’ve obviously got more than one on this thread.

[Litterick]

The resistance to change ( conservatism , reaction ) is part of the dialectic momentum of progress itself ( vide Adorno and Honkheimer's Dialectic of Enlightenment )

therefore , reactionaries are the true progressives

quod erat demonstrandum

A new arrival, at such a late hour. Welcome, Mr Triangle. Perhaps you would like to introduce yourself. What brings you here? Where are you? What are you doing?

[ccroft]

Importance of playing by ear? At the risk of stating the obvious:

• being able to comp. You need to be able to hear what the soloist is doing and add accompaniment that fits, and hopefully even inspires him.

• being able to hear what the band is doing behind your solo so that you can play something that fits, and hopefully even inspires them.

• the whole trading 4's thing if you're into that. It thrives on hearing what the guy did before you and expanding on that, very often quoting what he did.

If you can't play by ear I don't see how you play jazz. I learned by playing with records and trying to fit in at the beginning. Later by just playing a ton with others and by 'parakeeting' heads and solos. Learning to hear what's going on in jazz and adding good stuff is the goal. Not surprisingly, playing jazz with other humans is the best ear training.

I'm sure formal ear training is effective to some degree. Never had the pleasure.

[pamosmusic]

And for what it’s worth … I don’t think it’d be a terribly good use of everyone’s time to watch me fumble through Jim Hall’s solo.***

I was just asking—on a thread about transcribing, wherein lots of people have posted lots of different processes—what might be had by trying those different things.

What do people get out of doing it the way they do it.

Oddly enough, Im kind of interested in what other people think. Call me crazy.

*** for those of you possibly interested in Jordan Klemons’s triad-plus-one thing; those bad boys are all over that one chorus of Stella. That was kind of cool.

[djg]

Thanks djg..

yea played and transcribed all except the Motion thing from Rene Thomas.... although was a little... boring, maybe had to be there. Scat... wow. Still play Miss Ann's Tempo sometimes... gets muddy LOL

sigh. what i posted were not only the heads but also the transcribed solos. if you have played the bird chorusses on cherokee, the monk solo on lil rootie, or grants solo on miss ann, let's hear that

[Christian Miller]

That miss Ann’s tempo solo is so killer.

[Christian Miller]

hell. yeah. first lick on the second chorus blew many minds, mine included.

the whole record is dope. baby face was the organist that JOS respected the most, i heard.

yeah it’s mega, listening a lot to that one lately

EDIT: yeah that is a FANTASTIC line haha

[Litterick]

Ah, well.

As I said quite clearly, I don’t think you were making that point. Perhaps Peter put it better.

If you didn't think I was making that point, that racist point which you created in your own mind, then you didn't need to say anything. A good rule in life is to keep such nasty thoughts to yourself. Acquainting yourself with the topic before rushing to conclusions is also advisable.

You didn't answer the direct question I asked about that strange remark you made, attributing to me opinions about transcription and the canon. It seems to me that you run away whenever you are challenged.

Don't bother replying; I won't be reading.

[Christian Miller]

If you didn't think I was making that point, that racist point which you created in your own mind, then you didn't need to say anything. A good rule in life is to keep such nasty thoughts to yourself. Acquainting yourself with the topic before rushing to conclusions is also advisable.

You didn't answer the direct question I asked about that strange remark you made, attributing to me opinions about transcription and the canon. It seems to me that you run away whenever you are challenged.

Don't bother replying; I won't be reading.

Of course you will.

You’ve said this many times before and you can never resist engaging with my posts with your usual combination of bluster and mock outrage.

[pamosmusic]

Here’s one:

Could we make a list of some various uses of learning by ear?

For example, a few that have been mentioned here in various combinations...

Write it down.
Memorize.
Play it on piano.
Play it on guitar.
Sing it.
Learn with variations.

Maybe some others …

Solfege? Gasp.
Learn in different keys.

Ive been working on Jim Hall’s Stella this week and starting to work fingerings out in multiple positions.

What other ways do folks like and, maybe most important, what do you feel is the benefit of each?

I should clarify that I mean … when you learn something by ear, you …..write it down, don’t write it down, learn the whole thing, don’t learn the whole thing, vary the language don’t vary the language.

I used the phrase “learn by ear” because “transcribe” is apparently more loaded than I anticipated.

For the record, I do know the benefits of learning music by ear. I’m curious what folks think are the benefits of all the other stuff they do with the music they learned by ear.

Sigh.

[Christian Miller]

I should clarify that I mean … when you learn something by ear, you …..write it down, don’t write it down, learn the whole thing, don’t learn the whole thing, vary the language don’t vary the language.

I used the phrase “learn by ear” because “transcribe” is apparently more loaded than I anticipated.

For the record, I do know the benefits of learning music by ear. I’m curious what folks think are the benefits of all the other stuff they do with the music they learned by ear.

Sigh.

I don’t always know. I’ve had a go at pretty much every way I can think of.

When getting started with swing guitar i transcribed a fair amount of Prez, Louis, Django and Charlie Christian among others. At that point I was looking to lift licks. Even though I’d been playing modern stuff for years I’d never done this. It was because earlier jazz was alien to me and I wanted to play the style.

Soon after I applied the same approach to bop and so on. I looked at Parker, Bud, Dexter, Mobley, Wes, Grant etc etc. after that it was back into the modern guys…

I wrote down a solo straight to notation once without reference to the guitar. That was interesting because I don’t map the guitar that way.

Usually I play things right away, one phrase at a time in more or less real time. I see this is good for getting the improv muscles and lugholes going. This type of thing:

But it doesn’t teach you the solo if that’s your aim.

Despite my steady diet of ear learning (esp 2010-2017ish) is the only solo I’ve ever learned completely for performance. It’s not very long. It taught me about technique and feel. I would probably benefit from doing more. Otoh did I learn anything from it I couldn’t learn from playing heads by ear? I’m not 100% either way.

I do sing solos. I think that’s the main thing really; getting it in your ears. It takes me an incredibly long time to learn to sing anything haha

[pamosmusic]

I don’t always know. I’ve had a go at pretty much every way I can think of.

When getting started with swing guitar i transcribed a fair amount of Prez, Louis, Django and Charlie Christian among others. At that point I was looking to lift licks. Even though I’d been playing modern stuff for years I’d never done this. It was because earlier jazz was alien to me and I wanted to play the style.

Soon after I applied the same approach to bop and so on. I looked at Parker, Bud, Dexter, Mobley, Wes, Grant etc etc. after that it was back into the modern guys…

I wrote down a solo straight to notation once without reference to the guitar. That was interesting because I don’t map the guitar that way.

Usually I play things right away, one phrase at a time in more or less real time. I see this is good for getting the improv muscles and lugholes going. This type of thing:

But it doesn’t teach you the solo if that’s your aim.

Despite my steady diet of ear learning (esp 2010-2017ish) is the only solo I’ve ever learned completely for performance. It’s not very long. It taught me about technique and feel. I would probably benefit from doing more. Otoh did I learn anything from it I couldn’t learn from playing heads by ear? I’m not 100% either way.

I do sing solos. I think that’s the main thing really; getting it in your ears. It takes me an incredibly long time to learn to sing anything haha

Right right. That makes sense. Mr Brecker back earlier in this thread was just talking about all the technique stuff, so that’s why I’ve been very deliberately going through Stella and trying to learn it with different fingerings. Im hoping maybe mimicking the feel on a triplet turn in more than one place, some of which are more natural than others, will be helpful.

It’s also a good way to keep me playing the solo in larger pieces because I tend to get sidetracked dissecting the lines. This is how I find myself practicing them a lot (the video is one I made a few months ago for Jeff’s modular lick compendium):

[Christian Miller]

If you didn't think I was making that point, that racist point which you created in your own mind, then you didn't need to say anything. A good rule in life is to keep such nasty thoughts to yourself. Acquainting yourself with the topic before rushing to conclusions is also advisable.

You didn't answer the direct question I asked about that strange remark you made, attributing to me opinions about transcription and the canon. It seems to me that you run away whenever you are challenged.

Don't bother replying; I won't be reading.

He’s back!

If I were a betting man … (mind you I don’t think anyone would accept the wager.)

1) challenges me to respond to his post
2) says he won’t be reading the response
OK

I am confident that an impartial party reading my response will be clear on what I meant and see the nature of your reaction plainly. I have nothing to add.

Unless you have something to add to clarify the meaning of your post regarding the Lincoln centre etc, in which case, please.

Either it’s what you meant or it isn’t. Theatrics doesn’t change that.

otoh you seem rather keen to draw attention to it for some reason.

[ccroft]

I should clarify that I mean … when you learn something by ear, you …..write it down, don’t write it down, learn the whole thing, don’t learn the whole thing, vary the language don’t vary the language.

I used the phrase “learn by ear” because “transcribe” is apparently more loaded than I anticipated.

For the record, I do know the benefits of learning music by ear. I’m curious what folks think are the benefits of all the other stuff they do with the music they learned by ear.

Sigh.

Thanks for clarifying, and sorry about my bleedin' obvious list of benefits!! I didn't understand what you where asking.

Not sure I've ever written down something I learned with my ears. I think memorizing it is good for the... memory. Which is a good thing to have and to keep developing. It does start to fade a bit in later life. Maybe I'll start writing things down!

I spend a lot of time fooling around with something I've er... learned. I'm trying to integrate the feel of it into my playing without straight out copping someone else's idea. Trying to bake it in. After doing that long enough it's probably good to forget about the note for note. I've come back to a few things I've learned and forgotten over the years. Comes back quick, even after several decades.

I do tend to learn the whole thing. Maybe it's just the challenge and satisfaction of having made it all the way through? Or maybe it's because if I decide to learn it, it's because I like it and enjoy working on it. And then I'll fiddle with the parts that I'm most attracted to.

Another thing I like about learning solos and heads, and especially other than guitar, is that it pushes me to things that I haven't already figured out and played to death.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for clarifying, and sorry about my bleedin' obvious list of benefits!! I didn't understand what you were asking.

No no no no. That was my bad. I should’ve just called it “transcribing” or consulted Christian on the new terminology for the particular context. Oh well.

I spend a lot of time fooling around with something I've er... learned. I'm trying to integrate the feel of it into my playing without straight out copping someone else's idea. Trying to bake it in. After doing that long enough it's probably good to forget about the note for note. I've come back to a few things I've learned and forgotten over the years. Comes back quick, even after several decades.

This seems to be something folks have in common. Learning and then not necessarily worrying about maintaining it. Definitely the case for me.

[Christian Miller]

Singing/aural memory seems more robust than muscle memory.

I think if you can sing it it’s just a matter of putting the notes on the guitar again.

[ragman1]

How important is it to transcribe jazz solos?

Depends on the person. Some people are readers, others are better at ear playing.

[blackcat]

Most people value copying solos to train your ear and build vocabulary, among other things.

I have met great players who claim to have done very little of it.

But, most great players have done it.

Martin Taylor ( interview with Justin Sandercoe ) - 'No, only lines and phrases - never whole solos'.

Julian Lage ' No, largely because I don't want to sound like anyone else'.

Personally, I think it is of great value but then who am I!

[AaronMColeman]

I was playing along with some of Kind of Blue lastnight and just picking little 1-2 bar phrases (mostly miles phrases) that sounded cool to me. Most were simply outlining a chord in a cool rhythm or with a pretty extension...my take away was that there's nothing particularly special about what he did it was how he did it. And picking up some fun phrases has really opened a lot of ideas for me.

I transcribe mostly by playing along and picking the phrases I like. For me that gives me a list of licks to use and ideas to build around. A whole solo usually takes so long I don't have the time.

[djg]

Singing/aural memory seems more robust than muscle memory.

I think if you can sing it it’s just a matter of putting the notes on the guitar again.

i know guys who claim that they've never transcribed anything in their life. you then put a hank mobley record on and they sing along with the whole damn thing...

[Christian Miller]

i know guys who claim that they've never transcribed anything in their life. you then put a hank mobley record on and they sing along with the whole damn thing...

hence my trouble with the t word. It’s just an institutionalised version of the Real thing which comes from loving the music and listening to it very closely and getting it in your blood…. It’s organic, not a specific practice activity which is why they don’t think of it as a ‘thing.’

I could do with a bit more of that in my life. Thanks for reminding me.