SHOULD we study and practice scales and modes?

[FatJeff]

Wow, what a thread to read. But I can't believe no one has pointed this out earlier (or maybe I wasn't reading this thread entirely):

"1) Modes and scales are useless. They were not necessary for stellar players like Wes Montgomery, Grant Green et al and they are most certainly not necessary for you to learn."

While Wes or Grant may not find it necessary to learn modes and scales, there are other players who don't find it necessary to learn this as well but play disgustingly. At the same time, there are those who learn scales and modes and play very well, like Pat Metheny or John Scofield, but there are also those who knows them but doesn't really know how to play. So, it's not really safe to equate being a stellar player with knowledge of scales and modes, or lack thereof.

Yep - it's a fundamental result of basic logic:

"A implies B" does not necessarily mean that "not A implies not B".

[Goofsus4]

once you get a feel for chords all over the neck, improvising becomes as easy as "connecting the dots," as what'll happen is, as soon as you see a chord the fretboard will essentially light up with possibilities.

You've talked about this before and I always like the way you phrase that "lights up" thing. I think this is very true, at least from my experience. This is what I am trying to get at when I say let things "manifest" themselves to you. I can connect arps for the most common chords all over the neck now NOT because I practiced arps, but because I played songs, primarily chord melody style that used chord voicings all over the neck. Now I can sort of just see the chord tones sitting there, "lit up" when I think about a particular chord. Back when I tried practicing them on their own, it never sank in. It was sooo hard to see the "meaning" of the pattern. But once I reversed the process, the patterns started showing themselves to me.

I just don't think you can rush this stuff. It takes years and people just need to understand that - be patient and just learn songs keep improvising until it starts to gel - and it will. Just always make MUSIC with the skills and knowledge you have at the time. Sure, there is always the prodigy that will pick up the guitar and two years later be on tour, but that's definitely not the way it happens for most people I'm sure.

[chasgrav]

First, there are three, non-negotiable things you must learn.

1. the names of all the notes on the fretboard

2. all 12 major scales (i don't care if you can play them, you gotta be able to SPELL them, i.e, C major-- C D E F G A B)

3. Chord formulas for four critical chords: maj7, dom7, m7, and m7b5 (half diminished)

maj7: R 3 5 7
dom7: R 3 5 b7
m7: R b3 5 b7
m7b5: R b3 b5 b7

...and thereby how to spell any chord in any key. So three months from now, somebody should be able to say Dm7, and you can rattle off D, F, A, C like telling someone your phone number. Simply take the major scale based on the root (so for any "G" type chord, even minors, take a G major scale) and lower the needed notes. For example-- Gm7b5: G major scale: G A B C D E F#, take the root, G, third B, fifth D and seventh, F#-- flat the third, fifth and seventh, and get G, Bb, Db, F

Chords are gonna be where it's at for a bit. We're putting scales away, aside from that ever-important major. Modes are somewhere in Kansas now, and won't be arriving till much later. They haven't even bought a train ticket yet.)

Take the three non-negotiables and work with them for a half hour a day. You'll have 'em licked in three months, two if you work really hard. That's a groundwork for everything that will come.

In the meantime, I'm also gonna get you started with 12 critical chord "shapes." Let's get away from this "one key at a time" business, while that's nice and all, very few jazz songs stay in one key, and we gotta get you playing songs, or you're gonna get bored fast.

You're not just getting freebies here, though, You're gonna have to do some work with these as well. I'm gonna give you them all spelled from C, which means you'll need to transpose them to all 11 remaining "roots." This will give you 144 chords by the end of your three month (hopefully 2) trial by fire. There will be three chord forms for each of the afforementioned "critical types," one with a root on the 6th string, one with a root on the 5th, one with a root on the 4th.

here they are:

Cmaj7

8 x 9 9 8 x
x 3 5 4 5 x
x x 10 12 12 12

C7 (dom7)

8 x 8 9 8 x
x 3 5 3 5 x
x x 10 12 11 12

Cm7

8 x 8 8 8 x
x 3 5 3 4 x
x x 10 12 11 11

Cm7b5

8 x 8 8 7 x
x 3 4 3 4 x
x x 10 11 11 11

pay very close attention to what's moving where. look at the similarities and differences. It's up to you to figure out which note is which, and you'll be able to do that once you master the "non-negotiable" items.

Now pick a few songs, learn the chords, and try to play the chords "close by" each other. This will force you to use all 12 shapes and internalize them.

I'll see you in three (hopefully 2) months

This might be the best, most concise, bit of advice I've ever seen about starting out on jazz guitar. I printed myself a copy. It should be a 'sticky thread'.

Thanks, Mr. Beaumont!

[elixzer]

Well, i dunno if it fast-tracks anything. It's gonna be a lot of work.

What I advise, I guess, in a nutshell, is intended to do two things. One, to get you comfortable with playing the chords to a song in one area of the neck without jumping around, and two, to get you understanding the "why" and "how" of building chords. You figure, once you can spell a chord AND know the notes on the fretboard, there's no reason to "memorize" any "shapes" again, you can grab everything as you need it and USE it.

thereby, with the actual USING, you'll internalize them and yes, memorize them.

I advocate learning jazz guitar like a piano player learns to play--you play melody AND chords, eventually simultaneously. Guitarists tend to seperate things into "lead" and "rhythm" camps too much...

once you get a feel for chords all over the neck, improvising becomes as easy as "connecting the dots," as what'll happen is, as soon as you see a chord the fretboard will essentially light up with possibilities.

I have been working on a book that'll likely never get published (or finished, at this rate) but that's the overall concept, anyway.

What you are saying sounds really cool! Really.

But I am confused right now as to where I am at regarding your lesson which I need to share with you--

This is where I am right now--following this lesson from JGuitar's free lessons:

"1. You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C
major without thinking.
2. Now that you know the chords of C major, it's easy to find chords of
other keys.

For example: to find the chord tones of Cm7:
1. You know the chord tones of Cmaj7: C E G B
2. You know the chord formula of Cmaj7: 1 3 5 7
3. You know the chord formula of minor 7: 1 b3 5 b7
4. Adapt the chord tones of Cmaj7 to the formula of minor 7:
bring the 3 and the 7 a half tone down
5. Conclusion: the chord tones of Cm7 are: C Eb G Bb "

So I am in process of trying to do this. I AM aware how the maj7s and the min7s and 7s share similar patterns, and have also thought today would it be wise to draw the fret-neck and plot the shapes for the maj7 and then draw another for the min7s dom7s etc? One member here suggested something similar. Or maybe that is too sturdied and its best to be playing

A maybe silly fear of mine is whether including your lesson at this juncture might muddy my memory I am trying to get for these chord tones. my plan had been that once i was more familar with them to then begin finding inversions for them and THAT would mean not having to jump about the neck--if you get me (which I'm sure you do)

But you seem to be saying that your lesson will learn me better than carrying on this lesson?
All I ever am after is effective practice so that what I am doing is fruitful to understanding the guitar and music--

[abracadabra]

Mr. B,

You mentioned that knowing all the notes of the chords you are trying to play, plus knowing the notes on the fretboard, 'lights the fretboard up', which I can totally understand.

But the thing is, (and Goofsus4 kind of mentioned this, but I don't know if he means the same thing), although if you ask me which notes are contained within a chord I can tell you, and if you ask me to point out where all the Eb's are on the fretboard I can show you, when I play I don't see a load of notes that relate to chords, I see the fretboard as a load of patterns/shapes that relate to chords.

This must be fairly common, even prevalent, and I suppose it is because I have specifically studied arpeggios a lot.

So my question is, what are your, and others', thoughts on this?

[elixzer]

You've talked about this before and I always like the way you phrase that "lights up" thing. I think this is very true, at least from my experience. This is what I am trying to get at when I say let things "manifest" themselves to you. I can connect arps for the most common chords all over the neck now NOT because I practiced arps, but because I played songs, primarily chord melody style that used chord voicings all over the neck. Now I can sort of just see the chord tones sitting there, "lit up" when I think about a particular chord. Back when I tried practicing them on their own, it never sank in. It was sooo hard to see the "meaning" of the pattern. But once I reversed the process, the patterns started showing themselves to me.

I just don't think you can rush this stuff. It takes years and people just need to understand that - be patient and just learn songs keep improvising until it starts to gel - and it will. Just always make MUSIC with the skills and knowledge you have at the time. Sure, there is always the prodigy that will pick up the guitar and two years later be on tour, but that's definitely not the way it happens for most people I'm sure.

This is a beautiful inspiring post man!
questions about it will be coming shortly

[Gambrosius1984]

This post is pretty long, but just thought I would jump on board. I am self taught. I never had a guitar teacher, learned scales, modes or anything like that. I have performed almost every style of music since I was 12 (Blues, ska, reggae, funk, hard rock, metal, etc.). Like many other self taught guitarist, like (Wes, Tal, Django, etc.) I learned jazz by listening to the greats from the past and learning the chord structures to all the classic songs and the melodies. Then I would listen to the licks and not necessarily copy them, but get the rhythms in my head and improvise my own licks to those rhythms.

Naturally over time all this has given me a better knowledge of the music in general, how to read basic notation, chords, etc. I still do not know the modes or scales by name, though people will tell "That was nice when you did that bebop scale or modulation or etc."

Also, I would listen to Django and Bird, with their there is no wrong note style annd use of chromatics and add them to many licks. I play ATTYA down in my signature at the bottom, and do not know really the scale names(other than major or minor) or anything I play, just improvise. Still I perform weekly(as I have for many many years) and still get questions about how much music education I have and what I am playing???. Play from the heart and your sound will get through.

[Goofsus4]

I still do not know the modes or scales by name, though people will tell "That was nice when you did that bebop scale or modulation or etc."

I have some book on Charlie Parker transcriptions and I think it said some dude (sorry if I'm be insulting with my jazz history ignorance here) made up the bebop scale after hearing Parker and others repeatedly play those altered tones in their licks. So, I guess Parker was playing the bebop scale before it ever existed!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

David Baker? Bebop scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can say that about a lot of music. The "rules" for voice leading and harmony for classical music, for example, couldn't precede the music, eh?

[randalljazz]

David Baker? Bebop scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can say that about a lot of music. The "rules" for voice leading and harmony for classical music, for example, couldn't precede the music, eh?

true that. theory and 'rules' are general principles deduced from observed practice.

[Goofsus4]

David Baker, yes, that's it. This wiki is nearly the exact words the book I have used.

[mr. beaumont]

What you are saying sounds really cool! Really.

But I am confused right now as to where I am at regarding your lesson which I need to share with you--

This is where I am right now--following this lesson from JGuitar's free lessons:

"1. You must be able to picture the chord types and chord tones of C
major without thinking.
2. Now that you know the chords of C major, it's easy to find chords of
other keys.

For example: to find the chord tones of Cm7:
1. You know the chord tones of Cmaj7: C E G B
2. You know the chord formula of Cmaj7: 1 3 5 7
3. You know the chord formula of minor 7: 1 b3 5 b7
4. Adapt the chord tones of Cmaj7 to the formula of minor 7:
bring the 3 and the 7 a half tone down
5. Conclusion: the chord tones of Cm7 are: C Eb G Bb "

So I am in process of trying to do this. I AM aware how the maj7s and the min7s and 7s share similar patterns, and have also thought today would it be wise to draw the fret-neck and plot the shapes for the maj7 and then draw another for the min7s dom7s etc? One member here suggested something similar. Or maybe that is too sturdied and its best to be playing

A maybe silly fear of mine is whether including your lesson at this juncture might muddy my memory I am trying to get for these chord tones. my plan had been that once i was more familar with them to then begin finding inversions for them and THAT would mean not having to jump about the neck--if you get me (which I'm sure you do)

But you seem to be saying that your lesson will learn me better than carrying on this lesson?
All I ever am after is effective practice so that what I am doing is fruitful to understanding the guitar and music--

I actually hope someone else will chime in on this--because from what I deduce from JGuitar, it seems were saying the same thing, I just find my way clearer and more concise-- but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that I wrote it, so of course it makes sense to me!

Honestly, I've seen (on another board) lots of confused people asking questions who have been using JGuitar. I have no oubt that's a well-meaning site, but it seems to be written in a language that's not the easiest to decipher. It took me three reads of the bit you quoted to get what he was saying, actually.

So hopefully someone else, maybe someone else who's done the jguitar stuff, can weigh in, especially if I'm off base and we're NOT getting at the same thing.

[oilywrag]

I think its like you said before Mr B there is to much info out there now,if your not careful you can really get bogged down.But a big +1 for your post I second the motion to make it a sticky.

Chees Tom

[mr. beaumont]

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.

As I mentioned, I've been working on a book for a few years tentatively titled "The hell you can't play jazz guitar," intended to be a matter of fact, common sense look at a subject most folks consider rocket surgery. I write it as a completely regular joe who plays jazz, no child prodigy, not a virtuoso, just a guy who loves the music and who doesn't think it's that hard to play, if you really dig it and are willing to put in some work.

My post is the premise, and the whole concept is about learning tunes and learning to play chords and melody simultaneously, like a piano player would, whie getting away from the idea of "lead" and "rhythm" as different, opposing viewpoints.

Y'all have inspired me to get back at it. Like I said, I know it makes sense to me-- I just hope I an help it make sense to others.

[82Benedetto]

I have an idea for a book that no one has done yet.

No guitar book/CD sets based solely on developing the ear/hand relationship. That's what I'd like to see.

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.

As I mentioned, I've been working on a book for a few years tentatively titled "The hell you can't play jazz guitar," intended to be a matter of fact, common sense look at a subject most folks consider rocket surgery. I write it as a completely regular joe who plays jazz, no child prodigy, not a virtuoso, just a guy who loves the music and who doesn't think it's that hard to play, if you really dig it and are willing to put in some work.

My post is the premise, and the whole concept is about learning tunes and learning to play chords and melody simultaneously, like a piano player would, whie getting away from the idea of "lead" and "rhythm" as different, opposing viewpoints.

Y'all have inspired me to get back at it. Like I said, I know it makes sense to me-- I just hope I an help it make sense to others.

[elixzer]

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.

As I mentioned, I've been working on a book for a few years tentatively titled "The hell you can't play jazz guitar," intended to be a matter of fact, common sense look at a subject most folks consider rocket surgery. I write it as a completely regular joe who plays jazz, no child prodigy, not a virtuoso, just a guy who loves the music and who doesn't think it's that hard to play, if you really dig it and are willing to put in some work.

My post is the premise, and the whole concept is about learning tunes and learning to play chords and melody simultaneously, like a piano player would, whie getting away from the idea of "lead" and "rhythm" as different, opposing viewpoints.

Y'all have inspired me to get back at it. Like I said, I know it makes sense to me-- I just hope I an help it make sense to others.

It sounds GREAT, and I LOVE the title. I will order it as soon as it is available!

[GuitaRoland]

As I mentioned, I've been working on a book for a few years tentatively titled "The hell you can't play jazz guitar," .

Will it be available in Swedish - a joke of course, let me know when it will be for sale!

/R

[C.A.JO.]

I spent a couple of years practicing lots of scales and modes. Today they're "just in the fingers and the ears" - I mean I don't even think about them.
I don't practice them anymore... instead I use licks, patterns, sequences (which is built from scale tones), and through these I continue to review the scales, build vocabulary, and maintain technique. This would not have been possible if I didn't know my scales. Instead I would have had a bag of tricks, but I wouldn't be able to see how it's all connected.

I do believe that Conti is right in some way... scales are not music, and if you just play straight ahead scales in a solo you sound like you're exercising.
But if you consider your scales like the necessary "alphabet" needed to understand the "words" (licks, patterns, runs, sequences), then you have the right attitude towards them. Once you know your "alphabet" (the scales), then learn to use them by learning "words" and "sentences" (licks, patterns).

[billkath]

I think someone mentioned it-it might not be on this thread but it's definitely around here somewhere-
There's a great booklet that is VERY cheap called

(The Progressive Guitarist)
Arpeggios for Guitar
by
Don Latarski

Amazon.com: Arpeggios for Guitar (The Progressive Guitarist Series) (9780769209562): Don Latarski: Books

Each page gives you a new chord, in 5 different shapes, an arpeggio for that shape and a scale for that shape.

I feel it is a very good place to start, as you are learning all three things-scales, arps and chords, but much more importantly-how they all relate to each other. From a simple major 7 to dominant 13#9 and everything in between, it's EXCELLENT reference.

Spend a day doing each page. Within a couple of months you'll have a great grounding in the basics.

[elixzer]

You've talked about this before and I always like the way you phrase that "lights up" thing. I think this is very true, at least from my experience. This is what I am trying to get at when I say let things "manifest" themselves to you. I can connect arps for the most common chords all over the neck now NOT because I practiced arps, but because I played songs, primarily chord melody style that used chord voicings all over the neck. Now I can sort of just see the chord tones sitting there, "lit up" when I think about a particular chord. Back when I tried practicing them on their own, it never sank in. It was sooo hard to see the "meaning" of the pattern. But once I reversed the process, the patterns started showing themselves to me.

I just don't think you can rush this stuff. It takes years and people just need to understand that - be patient and just learn songs keep improvising until it starts to gel - and it will. Just always make MUSIC with the skills and knowledge you have at the time. Sure, there is always the prodigy that will pick up the guitar and two years later be on tour, but that's definitely not the way it happens for most people I'm sure.

Now I can sort of just see the chord tones sitting there, "lit up" when I think about a particular chord. Back when I tried practicing them on their own, it never sank in. It was sooo hard to see the "meaning" of the pattern. But once I reversed the process, the patterns started showing themselves to me.

Can you elaborate please the essential difference between 'practising them on their own' and in relation?

You say you reversed the process---so this must have been a deep insight for you right.
This is all very relevant for where I am at now because as I've said I am trying to play and memorize the C major chord tones----so I will start with Mjajor 7 and try to remember where the shapes all are up neck, and checkout the notes I am holding down----------then when I get to 12th, I will check out if i 'passed' tthe test looking at chordfinder and the JGuitar chords in its e-book

Then I move onto Dmin7, then Emin7, etc etc

Often I will get into a groove often more at the bottom of neck (near keys) with several chords--my favourite at the moment is Cmajor7, Amin7, Emin7, --and also trying to reach the chords up the neck

BUT I am really interested in your major transition. Can you please tell me more about it in depth--how you realized that relationship, pattern, was more important than seeing chords as isolated units?

[morroben]

Thanks for the votes of confidence guys.

As I mentioned, I've been working on a book for a few years tentatively titled "The hell you can't play jazz guitar," intended to be a matter of fact, common sense look at a subject most folks consider rocket surgery. I write it as a completely regular joe who plays jazz, no child prodigy, not a virtuoso, just a guy who loves the music and who doesn't think it's that hard to play, if you really dig it and are willing to put in some work.

My post is the premise, and the whole concept is about learning tunes and learning to play chords and melody simultaneously, like a piano player would, whie getting away from the idea of "lead" and "rhythm" as different, opposing viewpoints.

Y'all have inspired me to get back at it. Like I said, I know it makes sense to me-- I just hope I an help it make sense to others.

I rarely make it over to this forum but when I do I find good information. I found this thread and it really applies to things that I'm trying to improve on. I noticed a few very informative posts from this Mr Beaumont guy. I thought I recognized the pic so I went to his homepage. Turns out it's Jeff who's been schooling me on the TDPRI for years.
Jeff, you definitely have a knack for explaining things and making them seem manageable. I would strongly encourage you to work on your book idea. Your strength seems to lie in an area that isn't well covered in most guitar instruction books and videos. Beginners and virtuosos have a lot of instructional material to choose from, but those of us that have been playing for while and might be a little bored with the same old 3-4 chord blues/rock stuff, but aren't Al Di Meola either, don't have much to choose from. Thanks again for your help. I've saved a lot of your posts to my desktop over the years.

[ES125er]

I seem to remember an old interview where Jim Hall was saying a similar thing. Something along the lines of "Practicing scales is of paramount importance... if your goal is to become very good at playing scales".


FWIW, the arpeggio and chord tone approach was at the heart of Django's musical thought.

[Drumbler]

I rarely make it over to this forum but when I do I find good information. I found this thread and it really applies to things that I'm trying to improve on. I noticed a few very informative posts from this Mr Beaumont guy. I thought I recognized the pic so I went to his homepage. Turns out it's Jeff who's been schooling me on the TDPRI for years.
Jeff, you definitely have a knack for explaining things and making them seem manageable. I would strongly encourage you to work on your book idea. Your strength seems to lie in an area that isn't well covered in most guitar instruction books and videos. Beginners and virtuosos have a lot of instructional material to choose from, but those of us that have been playing for while and might be a little bored with the same old 3-4 chord blues/rock stuff, but aren't Al Di Meola either, don't have much to choose from. Thanks again for your help. I've saved a lot of your posts to my desktop over the years.

I second that.

[sdr]

I've so far only read the opening comment to this monster thread. A quick gut reaction...

If you're born with the natural ear and talent of a Wes or Django, you're fine to pay no heed to scales and theory. The rest of us mere mortals need the foundation to build from.

[fumblefingers]

roger that.