Just Starting Jazz Guitar

[fofig]

starjasmine,

Thanks for the reply, its well written and thoughtful.

The beatles for example, yeh I think they had people show them the basics of music when they were young and George Martin showed them lots of stuff on the way. But I think there is a distinction between this kind of learning and the really dedicated studious approach that you describe.

Myself I figured out music initially by playing Smells like teen spirit on one string of a guitar my mum had lying around from her youth and it went from there. I worked out various rock tunes of the 90s by ear and gradually built up knowledge of chords, technique and theory from there, with the help of a couple of books along the way. No Internet in those days, so I did the books from cover to cover and didn't get distracted by the likes of Jens Larsen etc. I had access to like 2 or 3 choices of guitar book in my local store so I was essentially taught indirectly but solely by the guy who had written the books if you get what I am saying?

So I've been playing for 27 years now and when people say to me 'ur good at that thing' I always say that looking back, I 'could' have learnt what I know in a lot shorter time had I studied in a more focused and intensive way. But the slow burning process i don't think would have been helped by a teacher, it was never really my life and there have been periods where I've barely touched a guitar for a couple of years, I was always like 'I love blues, ill get round to learning it one day.' I think that due to my character, being kind of forced to keep a steady progress by seeing a teacher every week might have caused me to resent it over time due to a perceived lack of freedom.

Then I got onto jazz however, man what a jump from the rock stuff. It was then that I had to put a LOT more effort in to get over the initial hills with it.

But I figured out a system that seems to be working really well that I haven't seen described anywhere else, basically an adaptation of minor pentatonic blues playing into jazz by filling in the gaps in the pentatonic to make it a full scale. I even asked on this form a few weeks ago 'does this sound right?' and the response was basically a thumbs up. So for this I am pretty proud of myself.

With the jazz I am practicing much more intensely these days I will also say, probably 2 hours a day on average. This jazz thing is so intriguing and beautiful its like an addiction and I want to have a second career in it soonish when I've stashed enough cash to be able to live off the pretty poultry gig fees u get here in England. Might even consider teaching kids rock stuff also, in an ironic twist lol.

£300 a month and 1.5 hour drives, blimey, that's a lot of cash and dedication, I raise my hat to you for doing that.

BTW I fully admit to being a bit arrogant, obstinate and pompous about this 'I ain't having no teacher' attitude.

Everyone knows him self better.

I actually do not go to my teacher every week. I just call him when I fill ready and want to have a course. It boils down to see him every 2/3 weeks.

In the meani i play other stuff and jam with several groups of friend.

I perfectly understand your point, if I can give you a suggestion thought try to find someone to play with.

For me it is what make the whole journey interesting and it is when I learn more as I need to be well prepared.

[KingKong]

Most of Jen's video are excellent, but as discussed above a lot of info to unpack!

Don't get me wrong about Larsen, I think he's a great guy, but it took me some time to realise that I wasn't inept and that his videos are ultra intensive. Plus he puts like one out a day or something ridiculous so for a while I was like.... yeh this Dutch guy , gonna do this vid....

Next day on you u tube, shit, here's another one, gonna do this one.... Next day, next day etc etc.

The pace of his videos and the rate he produces then distracts from the high quality of the info he conveys.

I perfectly understand your point, if I can give you a suggestion thought try to find someone to play with.

Yep, exactly, gonna try this very soon, been working on chord work as comping is behind soloing at the mo, and am figuring it has to be reasonable and have a bit of variation for other players to want you to accompany them. The thing that worries me about playing with others is losing track of the changes as I find with jazz u actually have to count bars which I'm not used to. Hence gonna scout out some intermediate players to jam with, so we can all make mistakes and not get drum cymbals thrown at out heads by some grumpy advanced players....

[KingKong]

Bored this morning so posting a bit.....

Here's a good tip that surely can't be controversial....

Get a cheap electric keyboard or even a piano if uve got space for it and can afford to get it tuned, here in the UK u can pick an old one up for nothing as people want to get rid of them, as long as u can be bothered with the hassle of shifting it.

Messing about a bit on that is really helpful as all the notes are in a straight line. This allows u to see all the patterns in the chords and melodies a lot easier.... e.g. who would have thought that a Minor 7th is kind of the same chord as C major ? I didn't get that idea properly until playing them on a piano. There is so much overlap in the chords and when I got that idea a lot of things I'd read but never really got quickly fell into place.

[Filmosound 621]

be careful though ... I bought a nice Piano 2 1/2 years ago and got dragged into Piano playing deeply.

quality time with the instrument in the morning sun is now sitting in front of the Piano instead of playing guitar.

but these two intruments benefit from each other in a way that I would have never thought of.

highly recomended.

[Christian Miller]

Bored this morning so posting a bit.....

Here's a good tip that surely can't be controversial....

Get a cheap electric keyboard or even a piano if uve got space for it and can afford to get it tuned, here in the UK u can pick an old one up for nothing as people want to get rid of them, as long as u can be bothered with the hassle of shifting it.

Messing about a bit on that is really helpful as all the notes are in a straight line. This allows u to see all the patterns in the chords and melodies a lot easier.... e.g. who would have thought that a Minor 7th is kind of the same chord as C major ? I didn't get that idea properly until playing them on a piano. There is so much overlap in the chords and when I got that idea a lot of things I'd read but never really got quickly fell into place.

Piano is very helpful.. jazz is built around the piano more than the guitar

[KingKong]

be careful though ... I bought a nice Piano 2 1/2 years ago and got dragged into Piano playing deeply.

quality time with the instrument in the morning sun is now sitting in front of the Piano instead of playing guitar.

but these two intruments benefit from each other in a way that I would have never thought of.

highly recomended.

Ha ha fair point, yeh buy a crap casio keyboard instead so it doesn't drag u in too much!

[Peter C]

Any musician should know their way around a Joanna; it's the reference instrument par excellence and great for mapping out chord voicings, general arranging etc. No woodshedding required, just learning to coordinate your hands.

[KingKong]

Pretty easy to port stuff over from the guitar to it, just play in c/ a minor to avoid having to use the black keys if ur not too bothered about learning piano technique.

[CliffR]

I've been following Jens' videos since I started trying to learn jazz around three years ago. I also watching many other jazz educators, but I have say Jens is the best fit for me. It's true they can be pretty dense, and they cover a wide range of sophistication, but I've learnt that watching with guitar in hand and being ready to pause and rewind really helps. I also find that I get more out of any given video whenever I revisit it.

For the longest time I thought how I didn't need lessons because there was so much free content out there. But when Jens launched his course I signed on immediately because I like his lessons so much, and I think it helped me enormously. Here the lessons are laid out so that each builds on the last. I'd spend 1-2 weeks on each, for 1-2 hours each day, but you can go at your own pace. After each module you submit a study (there'll all based on improvising over Take The A Train) and get a critique and advice from Jens. I'd say the combination of structure and critique here is invaluable.

After I finished the course I went back to YouTube videos and self tuition for 2-3 months, but began to feel the lack of guidance. That's when I signed up for 1-1 lessons with Christian Miller, and I couldn't be happier.

Long story short: I thought I didn't need lessons. Lessons have helped me improve drastically.

[KingKong]

Do you need a teacher though to tell u if ur stuff is good or not?
I record myself and ask the question, if a guy did that at a gig would I find it interesting to listen to?

At the moment the answer is - yes for a bit, but I start repeating myself, not enough variation.

I dunno, I'm miles away from Larsen's level but I don't find this too listenable if I'm honest.

[CliffR]

[QUOTE=KingKong;1190183]Do you need a teacher though to tell u if ur stuff is good or not?
I record myself and ask the question, if a guy did that at a gig would I find it interesting to listen to?
/QUOTE]

I like a teacher to tell me what's working, what needs extra work, and what is just plain bad. How's my time feel? How well am I outlining the harmony? How well do my lines move through the changes? What are the mistakes I'm making that I'm totally blind to? What are my unacknowledged strengths that I should play more of? I don't believe my taste is fixed and perfect - I believe it will grow and mature as I learn more. Tuition helps with that.

You found a Jens solo you don't like. Perhaps he's not for you, but it doesn't say anything about the subject of teachers in general.

[KingKong]

True.

Enough has been said and views have been well expressed on both sides of the argument.

Teachers ain't for me, they are for are for others.

To be fair to the many people that have spent time to reply and argue against me I should really take say one lesson see what happens! Its both a cost and pride thing for me.

It would feel really weird though, taking a first lesson after playing for nearly 3 decades!

[AllanAllen]

True.

Enough has been said and views have been well expressed on both sides of the argument.

Teachers ain't for me, they are for others.

Nothing wrong with either opinion.

To be fair to the many people that have spent time to reply and argue against me I should really take say one lesson see what happens! Its both a cost and pride thing for m.

It would feel really weird though, taking a first lesson after playing for nearly 3 decades!

I guess you have to ask yourself what’s sillier, taking lessons for the first time or being so mediocre after 30 years you can’t play over chord changes.

For me, I decided the second was sillier and I got a teacher. They immediately saw deficiencies, pointed them out and provided exercises.

[KingKong]

I guess you have to ask yourself what’s sillier, taking lessons for the first time or being so mediocre after 30 years you can’t play over chord changes.

What me or you? I can, that's been the backbone of my posts.

Anyway that post was intended as a 'peace settlement' as the discussion felt like it had run its course. I'm not going to go at it all over again.

[jameslovestal]

True.

Enough has been said and views have been well expressed on both sides of the argument.

Teachers ain't for me, they are for others.

Nothing wrong with either opinion.

To be fair to the many people that have spent time to reply and argue against me I should really take say one lesson see what happens! Its both a cost and pride thing for me.

It would feel really weird though, taking a first lesson after playing for nearly 3 decades!

First you post; "Teachers ain't for me, they are for others", then you mention "either opinion";

There is NO "opinion" as it relates to if having a teacher "works" or not for someone. That is an outcome; a result, and not an opinion.

But your post do come off as if you have an opinion, and that would be getting a teacher isn't the right choice for everyone (i.e. if one "needs" a teacher, they are somehow a lesser individual).

Hey, at least you had posted this: "I fully admit to being a bit arrogant, obstinate and pompous about this 'I ain't having no teacher' attitude".

[KingKong]

First you post; "Teachers ain't for me, they are for others", then you mention "either opinion";

There is NO "opinion" as it relates to if having a teacher "works" or not for someone. That is an outcome; a result, and not an opinion.

But your post do come off as if you have an opinion, and that would be getting a teacher isn't the right choice for everyone (i.e. if one "needs" a teacher, they are somehow a lesser individual).

Hey, at least you had posted this: "I fully admit to being a bit arrogant, obstinate and pompous about this 'I ain't having no teacher' attitude".

Yeh you sum it up well there. I didn't think all this would end up being taken so seriously! I've edited and removed the offending line as on reflection my underlying opinion on this would appear to be as you describe.

BA Baracus had a thing about planes, I have a thing about teachers.

"He ain't goin' on no plane and I ain't goin near no teacher!"

[starjasmine]

It would feel really weird though, taking a first lesson after playing for nearly 3 decades!

When you hear that player whose playing inspires you and you can't figure out what he's doing on your own, that's the time and the teacher for the first lesson :-)

I appreciate your well-balanced summation that at present lessons are not for you but fine for others. Thank you for the engaging discussion. Everyone has a different path.

Here's a live take of JK playing Summertime - it starts about a minute in, and is based on the arrangement that is on his "One" solo album.

EDIT: I think this is a great example of combining previously written stuff with improvisation on the fly. If you are familiar with the recorded piece, you will recognize parts that are verbatim quotes and notice that other parts are made up on the spot.

Best

SJ

[KingKong]

Thanks, I'm glad u read my post as I meant it.

I dunno, I guess that in general on this forum I try to provide some kind of light hearted counterpoint to a lot of the seriousness and studiousness that I see in the jazz world. No genuine offence is intended, I love this music as much as many and maybe more than some.

Summertime, I actually think its a better first tune than autumn leaves. It's got every chord in the key and easier to know where you are in the progression.

That guy sounds really good, gonna check him out as I've mainly been listening to 50s and 60s stuff so far.

[Christian Miller]

Hmm. Just a teacher’s perspective, I don’t think passing on information is a particularly important part of my job. The main thing is giving feedback and organising and prioritising practice assignments etc.

Info wise all the stuff on Jens’s channel etc is perfectly good. (You also have innumerable MyMusicMasterclass videos and so on.) But unless he is teaching you one to one you aren’t going to get personalised feedback and advice; or an experienced musicians ear.

Everyone is different. Everyone has different challenges.

And to be honest as a mostly self taught player I think where I’ve always got myself into trouble; you can’t hear everything and you don’t always know what you are lacking. Taking feedback is also hard for a chippy autodidact. But there’s no honour in the music world in doing it all yourself (sadly haha)

So I should probably go for another lesson soon.

[mr. beaumont]

YouTube videos are not teaching. They're demonstrations...how-to videos. Sit and get instruction.

[Scobie2UK]

Hi Kluson,

I happened upon this site a couple of years ago. Playing a bit of rock and blues, mostly self taught me on guitar, not reading music, loving the jazz sound, but not knowing where to get started.

I followed a link in this ‘getting started’ section called ‘learn guitar - lesson 1’
Posted by a guitar teacher as a lockdown project it starts at the beginning, building skills with arpeggios, and scales across the fretboard. Following the method over the weeks builds fretboard knowledge and familiarity with arpeggios, scales, intervals and an understanding of the relatively complex complex chord shapes which are part of the jazz sound. For me this was a step backwards which once mastered enabled me to take several steps forward. Not just playing chord melody and jazz standards from tabs but being able to understand why those chords and licks worked and the possibilities for improvising around them.

Depending on your level you might find it useful to visit this series of lessons as a starting point. It was a great find for me. It is not a get good quick series of videos, it is a structured method for learning guitar, and so requires some time. Each lesson provides practice exercises on downloadable pdfs.

I’ve copied the link below. Go back to the start of the thread for lesson 1.

Learning Guitar - Lesson 1