Some problems with blues

[grahambop]

I often practise soloing without any backing, because I like to hear the changes and the form in my head rather than rely on a backing track. I feel that I don’t know the tune properly until I can do this. Also I like to hear whether I can imply the changes well in my single-note lines. Using a backing track tends to disguise this, at least in my experience.

But I agree it’s not easy, I think it just takes a lot of practice, you have to use whatever methods it takes to get the structure of the tune clear in your head so that you can keep your place. For a new tune I might play it slowly and play a chord at the beginning of each bar, or every 2 bars, and combine this with very simple lines to start with.

Also I practise the tune away from the guitar. If I can’t mentally play the whole melody and comp the chord changes in my head then I don’t know it well enough. Ideally I should be able to mentally play a complete solo as well, then I’m really getting somewhere.

Anyway here’s a solo blues thing I did some time back, you can hear I played some chords at the most important points to sort of hold it together, hope this gives you some ideas.

[Lionelsax]

I often practise soloing without any backing, because I like to hear the changes and the form in my head rather than rely on a backing track. I feel that I don’t know the tune properly until I can do this. Also I like to hear whether I can imply the changes well in my single-note lines. Using a backing track tends to disguise this, at least in my experience.

But I agree it’s not easy, I think it just takes a lot of practice, you have to use whatever methods it takes to get the structure of the tune clear in your head so that you can keep your place. For a new tune I might play it slowly and play a chord at the beginning of each bar, or every 2 bars, and combine this with very simple lines to start with.

Also I practise the tune away from the guitar. If I can’t mentally play the whole melody and comp the chord changes in my head then I don’t know it well enough. Ideally I should be able to mentally play a complete solo as well, then I’m really getting somewhere.

Anyway here’s a solo blues thing I did some time back, you can hear I played some chords at the most important points to sort of hold it together, hope this gives you some ideas.

Thanks very much, it's what I'm looking for. Your sound is much more explicit than your words even if they were very clear.
Great playing !

[Lionelsax]

I'm not looking for thanks so I don't care. But, to be entirely impersonal about it, what I was finally going to say now seems inappropriate.
Ah, well, such is life.

I honestly don't think the problem is the timing, the music. or the blues. I think the problem's you demanding an unreasonable perfection of yourself. Sorry! Sax players often practice alone, just them in a darkened room, and all that. Nothing wrong with it, but the guitar's not a saxophone. It's basically a chordal instrument.

It really doesn't matter if you're not playing perfectly in time like a metronome because when there's a backing like a band or an audio track you probably will. Even just a bass track would help. That's the advice, take it or leave it! In any case, jazz instrumentalists often play behind the beat or in front of it, and all that. Gives the music character, you know.

Anyway, good luck. I'm sure you'll do it your way :-)

Thanks for what you did, I disagree about a thing, saxophonists never practice alone, we play with backing tracks, basslines, everything that can help and I admire pianists and guitarists who needs nothing to play.
I do my way but it is not so far from your way despite what you said, it helps.

This is a virtual duet, without a metronome.
The beginning is a mess.
Box

[ragman1]

What I said will help, of course, although it would be up to you in the end. But listening to me playing won't, will it? Someone else being able to do it won't help you. That's all I meant. But you wanted to hear it, so...

I have to say I've known a lot of sax players. They love to sit alone somewhere and doodle away, trying things out, learning tunes or whatever it is. Maybe you're different :-)

[ragman1]

Your box clip.

My immediate reaction is it's too complicated. Slow down. Get the rhythm really clear and steady. Play simpler stuff. If you must do continuous 8ths, fine, but 16ths are probably a bit ambitious at this stage. To keep time needs fluency in what you're playing. Unless you're just playing something memorised, improvisation needs to be spontaneous. That's the test, if you like.

We have a saying: KISS. Keep it simple, stupid. It's not very polite but it's a good message.

When you can go round the simple stuff, then complicate it. Patience and perseverance!

[Lionelsax]

What I said will help, of course, although it would be up to you in the end. But listening to me playing won't, will it? Someone else being able to do it won't help you. That's all I meant. But you wanted to hear it, so...

I have to say I've known a lot of sax players. They love to sit alone somewhere and doodle away, trying things out, learning tunes or whatever it is. Maybe you're different :-)

I'm more interested in structures and harmony... Maybe I'm not so different.
I am not playing alone, it's a metronome, it's a tool, like you said, if I were accurate it wouldn't sound like this. It is not perfect, it is not horrible, it is like it is.

[ragman1]

Hey, for god's sake! See, that got me moving. My leg was bouncing and the feet were moving. It had a great feel and the timing was brilliant. No problem there, you were really good.

But, honestly, guitar is slightly different, really it is. Miles Davis said once he didn't like guitar and I agree with him. Unfortunately it's the instrument I bond with completely. Just my luck

[Lionelsax]

Hey, for god's sake! See, that got me moving. My leg was bouncing and the feet were moving. It had a great feel and the timing was brilliant. No problem there, you were really good.

But, honestly, guitar is slightly different, really it is. Miles Davis said once he didn't like guitar. I agree with him. Unfortunately it's the instrument I bond with completely. Just my luck

I've been lucky there this is why I share it, and you're right the guitar is different : when you don't articulate very well on guitar it's a mess, that's why rock guitarists use a lot of effects.

[ragman1]

I see by your You Tube site you're a multi-instrumentalist, which is impressive, but do you play with other people?

[Lionelsax]

I see by your You Tube site you're a multi-instrumentalist, which is impressive, but do you play with other people?

I play with people time to time, where I live there are not a lot of jazzers, I like playing in trio : sax, bass & drums.
I used to play in duets too with drums, bass or piano.
Now I've got a project with another trio (sax, piano & bass).
I rarely play the guitar in a band even if I play it everyday (it's part of my job) but in another context, I've never tried on a live situation (jazz), for the bass in a live context it's every time I can, I love the bass and I feel more comfortable.

I tried one day to play the guitar in a duet (two guitars), I loved comping but for many reasons it didn't happen.

[ragman1]

I play with people time to time, where I live there are not a lot of jazzers, I like playing in trio : sax, bass & drums.
I used to play in duets too with drums, bass or piano.
Now I've got a project with another trio (sax, piano & bass).
I rarely play the guitar in a band even if I play it everyday (it's part of my job) but in another context, I've never tried on a live situation (jazz), for the bass in a live context it's every time I can, I love the bass and I feel more comfortable.

I tried one day to play the guitar in a duet (two guitars), I loved comping but for many reasons it didn't happen.

Well, perhaps the lack of everyday familiarity with the guitar has something to do with your hesitance in improvising. Guitar is actually pretty difficult. Easy to strum, hard to play well.

[wolflen]

some say the blues is easy to play..and yes its ONLY three chords ..right?

the Kenny Burrell example "Blues for Basie" is just a perfect example of how hip those three chords can be transformed into
a very cool composition..

How i do it..

I take the first four bars (and the pick up) and work with them until I can make the changes smooth..by that I mean the feel of the changes..not the sound..that aspect is another study in and of itself

then I try it in several keys..and then in different neck positions...then play with some inversions and see if they work as a chord run..

then go for the next four bars and repeat the above..and then the final four bars..and of course then the entire progression

I dont use a metronome and add just enough swing to keep the tempo moving at a steady pace..

when I feel ok with it..then i will work on trying to get Kennys sound...(which may not happen..but I still will try..I know--hopeless romantic..)

as far as the original post not being exactly 12 bars...dont count mechanically the blues has some stretch in its nature..thus the bending of notes and using chromatic lines in places and of course the countless turnarounds (which can produce parts of their own tunes..) so some chords may be held a bit longer or not as long --again its the feel your playing ..

some top blues players..if their work were analyzed by a click track..they would show some speed up on some bars and some slow down on others...but the feel will be a complete 12 bar progression
there is some site on the web showing a Jimi Hendrix tune with this dynamic..and unless its pointed out..your not going to notice...or care..

[KirkP]

I listened to the first video in the OP. The rhythm wasn’t bad, but it didn’t have the drive it could have. It’s ok to push and pull on the time a bit, but if there’s not an underlying pulse that’s solid the drive won’t be there.

Since your time issues seem to be greatest when you are playing the most complex rhythms, maybe you should do some syncopation & subdivision exercises.

Jens Larsen talks about those issues in the middle of this video.

[mhch]

He said it won't help, why should I thank someone ?
I think I'm going to make new friends.

"He" tried and spent some time on it, that's what matters

pour la 2ème phrase, c'est pas sur, enfin ça dépend qui ... comprenne qui pourra
En tout cas, c'est bien français ce genre de comportement.

[grahambop]

Thanks very much, it's what I'm looking for. Your sound is much more explicit than your words even if they were very clear.
Great playing !

Thanks. I found another example which uses a similar approach, again I put a few chords in the solo to keep the structure. Not a blues this time but a standard.

[christianm77]

Count the beats aloud as you play

[ragman1]

"He" tried and spent some time on it, that's what matters

pour la 2ème phrase, c'est pas sur, enfin ça dépend qui ... comprenne qui pourra
En tout cas, c'est bien français ce genre de comportement.

That conversation is over. Remarks like this are unhelpful, as they say nowadays. I don't need you to hold my hand and Lionelsax does not need lessons in manners. Being French, English or anything else has nothing to do with it.

Apply yourself to the music, that's what we're here for.

[ragman1]

Count the beats aloud as you play

I can't do that except with chords. Doing it trying to make a meaningful solo would just put me right off. Like patting your head and rubbing your tummy, that thing.

(It might be possible while regurgitating something memorised but it would have no feeling).

[Lionelsax]

Thanks. I found another example which uses a similar approach, again I put a few chords in the solo to keep the structure. Not a blues this time but a standard.

Thanks very much, I also appreciated your seven string guitar.
Autumn In New York (solo guitar) by Grahambop | Graham | Free Listening on SoundCloud

[christianm77]

I can't do that except with chords. Doing it trying to make a meaningful solo would just put me right off. Like patting your head and rubbing your tummy, that thing.

(It might be possible while regurgitating something memorised but it would have no feeling).

It’s basic rhythmic skills. I think you’d definitely benefit from practicing it. Gets easier the more you do it.

Drummers eat this stuff for breakfast.

[grahambop]

Thanks very much, I also appreciated your seven string guitar.

Thanks! Actually I don’t have a 7-string, on that track I was playing my Gibson 175 through a Boss OC3 pedal, it lowers the bass notes by an octave (you can set the range of notes to which the effect is applied).

I’m quite pleased that it passed for a 7-string!

[ragman1]

Drummers eat this stuff for breakfast.

Drummers? Of course they do! Not the same thing at all. Especially in 15/8 or whatever they do.

See, there I am, trying to make some notes/lines sound nice. That has all my undivided attention, nothing else is happening, I'm communing with the tune. But I'm supposed to be counting 1-2-3-4 in my head at the same time? What a distraction!

Never. But what I do do, I've noticed, is sort of pulse internally with the rhythm. Same thing with dancing. Not that I do that any more.

[christianm77]

Drummers? Of course they do! Not the same thing at all. Especially in 15/8 or whatever they do.

See, there I am, trying to make some notes/lines sound nice. That has all my undivided attention, nothing else is happening, I'm communing with the tune. But I'm supposed to be counting 1-2-3-4 in my head at the same time?

Never. But what I do do, I've noticed, is sort of pulse internally with the rhythm. Same thing with dancing. Not that I do that any more.

it’s basic rhythmic independence. It’s not like I’m suggesting doing anything actually challenging. Tricky at first, but so’s anything.

[ragman1]

Sounds like it comes right out of a book. I'm not a fan, Christian, just the way it is.

[christianm77]

Excuse? I'm telling you something. You're not listening.

I listened to it and it sounded like you were making an excuse.