Dealing with frustration and a demonstrable lack of progress.

[Jamesrohr1]

OK I’m in grumpy old man rant mode today, so here’s another thing.

Don’t you guys get any FUN out of playing this stuff? Cos that’s what kept me going for ten years. Not worrying about which complicated scale to play over which chord, or how fast I could go, or did I sound like Joe Pass or whoever, or was I being ‘original’.

Just to be able to play some cool Parker or Wes licks on a blues over a backing track, and make it swing, it just felt good and really enjoyable. A hundred times more fun than playing the same old boring rock solos I had been playing for ages.

So I kept on doing it and having fun. For a long time I thought ‘yeah but I’ll never be able to play jazz properly’ and of course I got very frustrated at times.

But I just couldn’t stop doing it, and eventually it sort of came together somehow.

If you don’t enjoy the process of exploring new ground and finding out from real-life examples how this music works and feels, then maybe that’s part of the problem?

I guess the short answer is "no". I mean I love Jazz, although I think I'm more inclined towards Fusion and Modal stuff than I am Bebop. I am really basic in that I love Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme. I also love staying out of my comfort zone and learning new concepts on my instrument. I was really attracted to the idea of learning some standards and maybe playing with some people one day when I was ready. I romanticized the simple idea of being able to put on some some backing tracks and just wailing for my own amusement. On paper, I really thought I was ready to tackle Jazz.

It tackled me instead! LOL. I just got real discouraged at the lack of progress, at continuously sounding awful, of seeing the mountains and mountains of work required in order to sound merely mediocre, at getting lost in the form, of having no idea what to play as the chords flew by. Mostly I fell in to this awful pattern of practicing and woodshedding and transcribing for years on end and retaining nothing. Unfortunately, as I am self taught, I think I'm just not smart enough, creative enough, or maybe just not patient enough to figure it out. I'm not looking for pity there, just stating the facts as I see them. There are some things some people can't do.

I think, under those circumstances, I can't really say I was having much in the way of fun. But personally, music has always been very difficult for me. It's a lot of work if you want to do it well. I have to woodshed constantly for things that come quite naturally to others. I've fooled some folks into thinking I know what I'm doing just by over-preparing for rehearsals/gigs/recordings etc. Turns out you can't fake Jazz.

I hope I'm not discouraging anyone else though. If you got the bug, go for it! I'm the last person anyone should listen to on the subject of Jazz improvisation.

[grahambop]

I think you possibly underestimated the effort involved, it’s true that playing jazz is not easy after coming from rock (I also found that!). As you say, just getting your head round the chord progressions of the standards is quite a ‘culture shock’ after playing relatively simple rock songs for years.

But I think people over-complicate it as well. For example most standards are really based on ‘chunks’ of the same few progressions. It took me years to figure that out. Before that I saw each tune as a separate ‘forest of chords’ with nothing in common. When you know that, you realise that you can effectively use a lot of the same ideas on many different tunes. Reducing and simplifying the structures is what a lot of musicians do (e.g. Joe Pass said that to him there are only 3 chords: major, minor and dominant).

But anyway that’s a whole other discussion. In some ways I think I was lucky back then not to have any books, internet, etc. to addle my head with complex theory and so on. I just learned some licks from Wes etc, figured out a few tunes, and went at it. I didn’t even have a fakebook or real book! I had to learn the tunes entirely by ear.

For bebop stuff, you might want to look at the youtube channel ‘things I learned from Barry Harris’. He reduces things to much simpler approaches. That’s if you still want to try!

[Liarspoker]

Well this thread has made me pick up my copy of Introduction to Jazz Soloing again and this time I can dive right in at writing licks since I know where many of the subs are in the book. It's really these subs that will make you sound like you're playing jazz as diatonic everything doesn't really cut it.

If anyone wants to join me just send a PM.

[Babaluma]

I’m primarily a Rock/Metal guitarist. I’m 45 and have been playing since I was 13. I started off with the Mel Bay books and classical lessons. And I briefly studied Classical and Jazz in college before going down the Shred rabbit hole.

I’ve tried to study Jazz seriously over the years though, but unfortunately I get quickly overwhelmed. Jazz and Improv is such an intellectual pursuit, I usually get lost after a few minutes and move on to other things. But at this point in my playing, I’d really like to be comfortable improvising in different musical situations. I’d also like my playing to have more depth harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically. It seems like a serious study of Jazz would be the best vehicle for reaching these goals. But it’s so hard. I am so lost. And since turning seriously to Jazz about six months ago, I have made zero progress. In some ways I actually feel my playing has regressed as I seem more aware of how terrible it is and I’m actually afraid to study Jazz sometimes because it seems like such a mountain of work to overcome before you can play with even a modest degree of fluency.

Being a family guy, I don’t have a lot of time to practice any more. So I’ve worked real hard to narrow my focus and work on just the essential stuff.
1) Warm-up/Technique. I start by spending several minutes with Jack Zucker’s excellent “Sheets of Sound”.
2) Repertoire. My goal is to memorize ten essential Jazz Standards by Summer. This includes chords and melody. I’m also writing arpeggios for each chart emphasizing the guide tones as well as playing along to the tunes in IRealPro.
3) Ear Training. I’m transcribing tunes I like by artists I dig. But for each guitar player I transcribe, I also have to transcribe a horn player.
4) Vocabulary. Slowly working through the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Very slowly. Lol
5) Rocking out. My reward for completing that stuff is getting to spend some time making noise with my pedal board and playing whatever I want. Even my Heavy Metal shred BS.

The thing is, I don’t know if this is enough. After six months, I barely know three Standards, I’ve only transcribed two tunes, and I’m still on page one of the Omnibook. If you asked me to take a solo over a tune right now, you would hear garbage. Utter garbage.

How long before it isn’t garbage? Lol. I know that’s a dumb question but I can only tolerate feeling like an idiot for so long before it’s time to move on. I know I just need to surrender my ego and give myself permission to stink, but Lord this just seems to suck all the fun out of music. Does this happen to you guys?

More specifically, is there anything I’m missing that would help speed this along? I tried Skype lessons with a Berkelee grad, but the internet connection was so bad I didn’t really pick much up. Keep in mind I live in a very rural part of the country. There are no Jazz musicians, let alone Jazz guitar teachers here. There are no jams to watch, let alone participate in. I’m stuck doing this on my own, after work, in the evening if I have an hour or so free.

Seriously though, thanks for reading this far. I know I may sound a little unhinged, but I’m just not getting it. Is it possible some folks are never meant to get Jazz?

Thanks again.

Firstly if you don't enjoy it don't bother. You are not looking to become a pro player so if it is not enjoyable it sounds like a pain you don't need.

However my advice to turn agony into something you enjoy is what worked for me.

Throw all the books out and all the practice you hate doing. You know the major scale backwards yes? Good that is all you need and a pair of ears. Keep in mind listening is practice. I feel listening to classic Grant Green for 5 hours will help more than practicing a 13b9 arpeggio in every key. Why? Because you are absorbing the language and the phrasing with your ears. The brain and the ears are magical instruments and if you let them will do all the work for you.

Take a couple of tunes you love and have an emotional connection to. If you are learning a tune because you feel you should rather than because it moves you don't bother. I recommend starting with something mid tempo without a flood of changes at first. Music isn't a competition, playing a simple tune well is better than playing a fast tune badly.

Listen to all the versions you can find of it, play it in the car, sing it in the shower. Play through the song focusing on arpeggiating the chords slowly, play it while watching TV. Don't worry about fancy inversions, just play what shapes you know and feel comfortable with. When you can play it without sheet music in front of you will know the path through the song. What key is the song in, does it change key? Make a note where that change happens and listen so you can hear it each time it comes round.

Final step, now play just the major scale in the key of each section and focus on playing melodies. Don't worry about anything else. Then an amazing thing will happen. Your ear will guide you to both the extensions and passing notes required and guide you to new and exciting melodic ideas, without having to think "Oh I should be playing Lydian here".

I am 41, I have focused on playing jazz for about 5 years. No one will mistake me for a professional jazz player, however I can now sit down and record the chords of a favourite tune in my DAW and improvise over it for hours and it is the best feeling. I am aware this process may not work for everyone and I hope I am not telling you anything that may damage your development, I am sure some more experienced players will correct me but doing this turned me from someone who was depressed every time I sat down to practice to someone who pretty much only learns by improvising.

[Babaluma]

As very much a beginner, this is the most depressing and discouraging thing I've read. Ugh. It was like reading a disturbing news story that you cant put down.....I just kept reading. I'm a couple guidless years in and had a major setback the other day and now i read that after 30 or 40 years of playing guitar folks still cant improvise and are gonna stop trying? I will be 50 in December, double ugh.

Some people can't improvise, who knows why. But just because they can't, doesn't mean you can't. Remember it is playing a melody. If you can come up with a melody over a tune, by singing or playing then you have the necessary skills already. I am sure you can come up with 4 or 5 variations on a melody over some chords you come up with? It may take a while but jazz is just playing different melodies over a set of chords.

[starjasmine]

OK, I'm confused. James, you say you have a music degree in one post and then in another you say you are self-taught. Do you mean you are self-taught on guitar but have formal training on another instrument? What's your primary instrument if it's not guitar? Or did you get a degree in composition, music therapy, something else? I just want to try to get an idea of where you are coming from.

Second, I'm glad you got a teacher a few years ago. Wish I had seen this thread then; if I had, I would say that if you are not making progress and not retaining anything, get a DIFFERENT teacher. Casting no aspersion towards your teacher or you, just saying that sometimes it "clicks" and other times it doesn't. I have had a number of teachers over the years, and some of them helped me right away, while others used an approach that did not help me. Maybe it was great for their other students, but not for me.

Finally, you said a few times that you can't "think of a melody" and that you can't scat sing. A technique that might help is to take a melody you can already play and then start modifying it. Keep the melody notes but change the rhythm. Play pieces, phrases, and repeat them. Play pieces of the melody out of order. Try changing just one note. Then maybe another. As you try out more things, you'll get further from playing the melody by rote and closer to making things up on the fly. The basic melody and rhythm provides you a framework of "sounds that work" that you can alter a bit here and there to create new ideas that still work.

PLAY... not WORK... at this. Just try things out. Keep it fun. Hopefully you will find some fulfillment and keep going.

You can try this with some of your rock shredding too.... just use what you know and are comfortable with as a starting point. Maybe try playing a rock melody you know with a clean tone, a different tempo, a different groove... not necessarily try to turn it into bop, you said you like fusion and modal... just the idea of taking something you know as a starting point to develop the skill of modifying that as a basis for creating new ideas.

Lastly, crawl before you walk, walk before you shred. Pick easy tunes and limited goals. Don't try to become Joe Pass overnight; it will just be frustrating.

This may be too little too late, but... just in case... I hope this helps.

Good luck!

SJ

[Jamesrohr1]

OK, I'm confused. James, you say you have a music degree in one post and then in another you say you are self-taught. Do you mean you are self-taught on guitar but have formal training on another instrument? What's your primary instrument if it's not guitar? Or did you get a degree in composition, music therapy, something else? I just want to try to get an idea of where you are coming from.

Second, I'm glad you got a teacher a few years ago. Wish I had seen this thread then; if I had, I would say that if you are not making progress and not retaining anything, get a DIFFERENT teacher. Casting no aspersion towards your teacher or you, just saying that sometimes it "clicks" and other times it doesn't. I have had a number of teachers over the years, and some of them helped me right away, while others used an approach that did not help me. Maybe it was great for their other students, but not for me.

Finally, you said a few times that you can't "think of a melody" and that you can't scat sing. A technique that might help is to take a melody you can already play and then start modifying it. Keep the melody notes but change the rhythm. Play pieces, phrases, and repeat them. Play pieces of the melody out of order. Try changing just one note. Then maybe another. As you try out more things, you'll get further from playing the melody by rote and closer to making things up on the fly. The basic melody and rhythm provides you a framework of "sounds that work" that you can alter a bit here and there to create new ideas that still work.

PLAY... not WORK... at this. Just try things out. Keep it fun. Hopefully you will find some fulfillment and keep going.

You can try this with some of your rock shredding too.... just use what you know and are comfortable with as a starting point. Maybe try playing a rock melody you know with a clean tone, a different tempo, a different groove... not necessarily try to turn it into bop, you said you like fusion and modal... just the idea of taking something you know as a starting

SJ

To clarify, I mean that my most recent studies in Jazz improvisation were largely self-taught over the last four years. I had one in-person lesson, and a few Skype lessons, none of which were very productive. As I live in a rural area, there are no Jazz clubs or other musicians to play with (even before COVID).

I don’t really know the difference between Rock melodies and Rock licks. I just know licks really. And it doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve tried to shoehorn some of the Rock stuff over changes. It generally sounds pretty bad.

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and turned slightly awkward. I’ve tried to delete it but I don’t think that’s possible. Thanks for everyone’s suggestions. I know you are all only trying to help.

[John Tom]

OK, Ok. I hear you. I don’t want to jump through hoops. I just want to communicate. How do I do that? How do I skip the technical stuff? How do I play music? How do I feel something? How do you get there? What is the procedure?

I
I'm certainly feeling this real pain.
I taught myself basic classical guitar and played pop and rock, but teaching myself jazz is the one of the hardest things I've ever done. Looking back over several years I felt serial confusion reading tutors and attending jazz group sessions. I think now all I needed was someone to say - music is music is music- scales and arpeggios are required unless you have a bat's hearing. If you can play arpeggios over every chord in a jazz standard that's a huge step on from playing chords C,F & G over a pop favourite. Playing the same arpeggios and anticipating the root from a fret below is revelation in sound. But the main thing I look back to is believing I couldn't play any music until I'd mastered every bit of jazz theory and endless advice out there.

[AlsoRan]

To clarify, I mean that my most recent studies in Jazz improvisation were largely self-taught over the last four years. I had one in-person lesson, and a few Skype lessons, none of which were very productive. As I live in a rural area, there are no Jazz clubs or other musicians to play with (even before COVID).

I don’t really know the difference between Rock melodies and Rock licks. I just know licks really. And it doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve tried to shoehorn some of the Rock stuff over changes. It generally sounds pretty bad.

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and turned slightly awkward. I’ve tried to delete it but I don’t think that’s possible. Thanks for everyone’s suggestions. I know you are all only trying to help.

I think it has been a great thread. Lot of us share your feelings about the experience of trying to learn to play Jazz. You expressed your feeling so well - not everyone can do that.

The thread caused me to do a lot of self-reflection on my Jazz journey. I step away, but then I return to the "fight." But, after 11 years of off and on trying., I am still seeing some progress that keeps me encouraged. Lately, I am quicker to notice the same shapes, when it comes to the modes of the Major Scale. Now, I am facing the challenge of working in some Melodic Minor Modes to get that tension. It has been fun.

Maybe you can do I what I am doing. Rather than putting pressure on myself to learn X number of Jazz songs, I have written my own changes, based on the ones I normally encounter in Jazz Songs. I spend months just trying to perfect one song, but it has certain chord progressions that I want to master. I can see how one can repeat licks on different songs because many of the shapes are derivative of others that I am familiar with.

Take Care and Happy Holidays to you and you guitar journey. Great thread. It got me going again on Melodic Minor (and its modes), which for my ears is what makes the Jazz that I really like.

[matt.guitarteacher]

To clarify, I mean that my most recent studies in Jazz improvisation were largely self-taught over the last four years. I had one in-person lesson, and a few Skype lessons, none of which were very productive. As I live in a rural area, there are no Jazz clubs or other musicians to play with (even before COVID).

I don’t really know the difference between Rock melodies and Rock licks. I just know licks really. And it doesn’t matter anyway. I’ve tried to shoehorn some of the Rock stuff over changes. It generally sounds pretty bad.

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and turned slightly awkward. I’ve tried to delete it but I don’t think that’s possible. Thanks for everyone’s suggestions. I know you are all only trying to help.

I relate to much of this. For my part, studying some jazz has helped my musicianship in other areas immensely. I'm a better general acoustic player, better singer , better improviser and accompanist in other styles etc. etc. I feel it's made me a lot better teacher as well. In the back of my mind, I do have vague aspirations to finding people to play jazz with someday, but like you, this is geographically and logistically more difficult than I have time to address right now.

In terms of the thread, don't worry about it. Threads have a life of their own. They are kind of like children in certain senses, and you have to let go if it becomes something different. It's actually been a great thread, far beyond your personal involvement. So, be happy with that aspect, and don't worry too much about its personal relevance in your life at the moment. That's not what threads are ultimately about. It's simply a conversation which is preserved.

Thanks for starting the thread, and I'm glad that it's still up.

[citizenk74]

I guess the short answer is "no". I mean I love Jazz, although I think I'm more inclined towards Fusion and Modal stuff than I am Bebop. I am really basic in that I love Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme. I also love staying out of my comfort zone and learning new concepts on my instrument. I was really attracted to the idea of learning some standards and maybe playing with some people one day when I was ready. I romanticized the simple idea of being able to put on some some backing tracks and just wailing for my own amusement. On paper, I really thought I was ready to tackle Jazz.

It tackled me instead! LOL. I just got real discouraged at the lack of progress, at continuously sounding awful, of seeing the mountains and mountains of work required in order to sound merely mediocre, at getting lost in the form, of having no idea what to play as the chords flew by. Mostly I fell in to this awful pattern of practicing and woodshedding and transcribing for years on end and retaining nothing. Unfortunately, as I am self taught, I think I'm just not smart enough, creative enough, or maybe just not patient enough to figure it out. I'm not looking for pity there, just stating the facts as I see them. There are some things some people can't do.

I think, under those circumstances, I can't really say I was having much in the way of fun. But personally, music has always been very difficult for me. It's a lot of work if you want to do it well. I have to woodshed constantly for things that come quite naturally to others. I've fooled some folks into thinking I know what I'm doing just by over-preparing for rehearsals/gigs/recordings etc. Turns out you can't fake Jazz.

I hope I'm not discouraging anyone else though. If you got the bug, go for it! I'm the last person anyone should listen to on the subject of Jazz improvisation.

Do what you need to do. You have learned much, and can have a much deeper, more informed appreciation for jazz than those who have never tried it. Art in any form is a lot harder than it looks like to the non-initiate. Do you think that everyone who wanders the halls of the Louvre can make a world-class painting or sculpture? Of course not. Yet they can experience and enjoy the works they see.You have not stinted in your efforts. You need regret nothing. Your journey has enriched your artistic soul in a way that would be otherwise un-available. You have been there, and back. Kudos! Now cut yourself a little slack, as J.R. "Bob" Dobbs might say, and sit back and watch the river flow. Smell a few roses. Listen to Jazz, and marvel. Play music you like.

[retrocat]

As very much a beginner, this is the most depressing and discouraging thing I've read. Ugh. It was like reading a disturbing news story that you cant put down.....I just kept reading. I'm a couple guidless years in and had a major setback the other day and now i read that after 30 or 40 years of playing guitar folks still cant improvise and are gonna stop trying? I will be 50 in December, double ugh.

Wow. Same. So depressing! I came to this thread because I googled and was having a similar problem with piano. I do all the right things. Break down my routine into technique, repertoire, improv. I record myself playing. I actually think I usually sound worse now (attempting jazz) in many ways than when I first started videoing and assessing my playing (pop/rock). I've been seriously considering just concentrating on learning more blues. I can stick to a couple of scales, pentatonic and blues. and just improvise that way. I've got some time left though before I give up. Recently learned a Bossa song which is really helping the time feel. Latin music is great for that. Also, just discovering Barry Harris and his method of teaching. He's still giving workshops online at 92. It's time consuming to watch him, but you can basically sit and watch him work out lines on zoom. It's pretty cool. As people have mentioned, singing and ear training are so important. I'd say sing as much as possible. When you're in your car or whatever. Maybe not jazz. Maybe just some pop music. Some Beatles or something. And know your fretboard and intervals well enough to find a starting note and and play the melody. I have been able to do this on piano for a long time now, the hunt and peck method. Instinctively, I think this is really the only way. If you can get a melody out of your head and sung, then you can get it out on the instrument. You just have to keep playing notes until you get the intervals and time right. Maybe you'll never see this. But yeah. Have fun. It's the most important thing. It's only music.

[citizenk74]

Wow. Same. So depressing! I came to this thread because I googled and was having a similar problem with piano. I do all the right things. Break down my routine into technique, repertoire, improv. I record myself playing. I actually think I usually sound worse now (attempting jazz) in many ways than when I first started videoing and assessing my playing (pop/rock). I've been seriously considering just concentrating on learning more blues. I can stick to a couple of scales, pentatonic and blues. and just improvise that way. I've got some time left though before I give up. Recently learned a Bossa song which is really helping the time feel. Latin music is great for that. Also, just discovering Barry Harris and his method of teaching. He's still giving workshops online at 92. It's time consuming to watch him, but you can basically sit and watch him work out lines on zoom. It's pretty cool. As people have mentioned, singing and ear training are so important. I'd say sing as much as possible. When you're in your car or whatever. Maybe not jazz. Maybe just some pop music. Some Beatles or something. And know your fretboard and intervals well enough to find a starting note and and play the melody. I have been able to do this on piano for a long time now, the hunt and peck method. Instinctively, I think this is really the only way. If you can get a melody out of your head and sung, then you can get it out on the instrument. You just have to keep playing notes until you get the intervals and time right. Maybe you'll never see this. But yeah. Have fun. It's the most important thing. It's only music.