Advice for aspiring jazz guitar players

[Hep To The Jive]

Sure. The more tunes you learn the easier it gets.

One of my goals is to good enough at learning chord progressions I can do it on the bandstand while playing it.

Actually, I already find mastering the melody much harder than getting an outline of the changes good enough to solo on. That's the next hurdle...

It's not that it's hard to improvise on... I can find my way through changes even if I don't know the tune very well. Not very artistic, but saves a day.

It's not what I was talking about exactly... Just sheer amount of songs you need to internalize if you don't want to use the charts on the gig. And the problem is often they are kinda harmonically similar to one another, so improvisation part is easy, but the melody and details in form are different.

Speaking of FORM... I'd make it an important point for aspiring player- learn to feel the form of a tune! It saved my ass so many times when playing an unfamiliar tune, and just listening to the form. Then you can't never get lost really, because you know when the A part ends, and B part begins, and A comes back again. You can BS your way through even if you don't know all the changes. (Of course it assumes you have a good timing feel, but that should be pre requisite for playing publicly anyway). There is simply nothing more embarrassing than to find yourself finishing your solo in the middles of a chorus, thinking it's the end of it, and bandmates looking at you like wtf dude, really? haha

[pingu]

Jazz used to be dance music+ballads but those days are long gone. The swing bands and funk era is over.
If you play something like bop it all sounds like random noise to the average person. It it's Bird imitators it sounds like random noise to me.
Learning to play dance music is a matter of doing the same thing over and over and over until you become a zombie.
Where would we be without zombies?
The Walking Dead is the best TV show of all time.

Look, I'm just pulling your leg here. I think you get my drift though.

I got the gags
But don't get the drift .... (Seriously)

[Stevebol]

I got up on the wrong side of the couch today. I removed my gibberish.
It sounds like good advice to me. I don't have much to add.

[gggomez]

Thank Christian, I am taking your advice.

Two others that pros have given me

1 always sing what you play

2 write every day, wether that be walking down the road singing a new tune or at the guitar

thanks again
mark

[mrcee]

I got up on the wrong side of the couch today.
It sounds like good advice to me. I don't have much to add.

I know what you're saying about rhythm. There's probably still plenty of players out there that can groove it's just that I never hear them much. I only really know about the US and Mexico. I can't speak for Canada, Asia, Europe or So. America. A lot of it just comes down to taste. You know, whatever pulls your tractor, and just because I'm not feeling it doesn't mean it's not happening. I listen to hip hop sometimes which isn't exactly my bag, but I'll give it a run for it's money, and the vocals and production can be cool if you're into that sort of thing but the instrumental parts are often weak and the rhythm is stiff. Those hard 2 and 4 snare accents are more than just a cliche. They've become a fetish. But we're living in a stiff non groovy world so maybe that's just the deal. I personally would rather listen to old school Mexican corridos or cumbia than most of what's coming out of the States. Be it Jazz or contemporary Funk/RnB/Hip Hop. Someone posted on another thread that most of the players on the big time RnB pop touring circuit were Gospel musicians. I believe it. They're probably the best around at this point in time as far as rhythm and groove go. imo rhythm is a fragile element and could be the first thing, musically, to suffer when things get culturally out of whack. And it's a chicken or the egg thing. Is it the audience or the players?

Just one old man's opinion

[christianm77]

It's not what I was talking about exactly... Just sheer amount of songs you need to internalize if you don't want to use the charts on the gig. And the problem is often they are kinda harmonically similar to one another, so improvisation part is easy, but the melody and details in form are different.

Actually that is kind of what I was trying to say.

Speaking of FORM... I'd make it an important point for aspiring player- learn to feel the form of a tune! It saved my ass so many times when playing an unfamiliar tune, and just listening to the form. Then you can't never get lost really, because you know when the A part ends, and B part begins, and A comes back again. You can BS your way through even if you don't know all the changes. (Of course it assumes you have a good timing feel, but that should be pre requisite for playing publicly anyway). There is simply nothing more embarrassing than to find yourself finishing your solo in the middles of a chorus, thinking it's the end of it, and bandmates looking at you like wtf dude, really? haha

Definitely

[Stevebol]

I know what you're saying about rhythm. There's probably still plenty of players out there that can groove it's just that I never hear them much. I only really know about the US and Mexico. I can't speak for Canada, Asia, Europe or So. America. A lot of it just comes down to taste. You know, whatever pulls your tractor, and just because I'm not feeling it doesn't mean it's not happening. I listen to hip hop sometimes which isn't exactly my bag, but I'll give it a run for it's money, and the vocals and production can be cool if you're into that sort of thing but the instrumental parts are often weak and the rhythm is stiff. Those hard 2 and 4 snare accents are more than just a cliche. They've become a fetish. But we're living in a stiff non groovy world so maybe that's just the deal. I personally would rather listen to old school Mexican corridos or cumbia than most of what's coming out of the States. Be it Jazz or contemporary Funk/RnB/Hip Hop. Someone posted on another thread that most of the players on the big time RnB pop touring circuit were Gospel musicians. I believe it. They're probably the best around at this point in time as far as rhythm and groove go. imo rhythm is a fragile element and could be the first thing, musically, to suffer when things get culturally out of whack. And it's a chicken or the egg thing. Is it the audience or the players?

Just one old man's opinion

Millennials are doing mumble rap and comedy+rap- crap. It's pretty funny.
I'm trying to decide who's culture I'm going to appropriate next. It will be Psy-Trance or bluegrass. Something like that.
Is it the audience or the players? IDK. I gave the ex CA and Japan. I took the east coast and mid-west.
I'm going to Nevada as soon as someone buys my house.

[princeplanet]

A....finding someone who really expresses time with ride and doesn't just wash everything out. Someone who is happy to play groove and not play fills all the time.

Someone who knows when to interact and when to hang back, when to improvise and when to play it simple, and is sensitive to the historical context of the music.

Someone who understands that jazz isn't a free-for-all but a music with a profound basis in African American dance music.

Someone who swings.

.....

Exactly! Have you found him/her yet?

[Thumpalumpacus]

As much as I love listening to Elvin, Tony Williams as well as the modern guys, busy drumming really annoys me to play with.

Man, I love a busy drummer. Gives me food for thought, and allows me four notes to a bar rather than twenty-four.

Playing rock most of my life, I've found the backbeat drummers to be a drag. Give me Keith Moon or Mitch Mitchell -- or in a jazzier context, Narada Michael Walden or Steve Gadd ... not that I'm fit to wash their socks, but you know what I mean.

I love having a complex rhythm underpinning what I'm doing, it makes me sound smart without too much extra work.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, but let's face it, not every gig is going to be with great players on every instrument every time.

Part of improvisation is not just "what do I play over this chord?," but "where's my place in this group and how do I make us sound the best we can?"

That's something you can only learn in the moment.

The most important gear any of us will ever own is a pair of ears.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You have to put in the time.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

[princeplanet]

....Man, I love a busy drummer. Gives me food for thought, and allows me four notes to a bar rather than twenty-four.

Playing rock most of my life, I've found the backbeat drummers to be a drag....

Well I certainly don't mean 4 to the floor rock drumming! Talking about Jazz drumming, but contained, cool and smart. Think Blue Note late 50's - early 60's. Lion and Gelder always looked for groove from the rhythm section, and there's about 20 drummers who did their best work on that label, IMO...

[christianm77]

Exactly! Have you found him/her yet?

Yes but now he plays with Van Morrison :-(

[christianm77]

Man, I love a busy drummer. Gives me food for thought, and allows me four notes to a bar rather than twenty-four.

Playing rock most of my life, I've found the backbeat drummers to be a drag. Give me Keith Moon or Mitch Mitchell -- or in a jazzier context, Narada Michael Walden or Steve Gadd ... not that I'm fit to wash their socks, but you know what I mean.

I love having a complex rhythm underpinning what I'm doing, it makes me sound smart without too much extra work.

Yeah the backbeat can be such a crutch can't it?

But I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity. Complex can be great, but it has to grooving. This is why Gadd is great. And you can't say Gadd doesn't play the gig. Have you heard on Jim Hall's Concierto by the way?

Vintage Soul and Motown is where it's at for me for pop drumming. There is a great backbeat but it's never overstated.

Now: "Make it groove, let's hit the 2 and 4 because everyone knows they're the cool beats!" (Simplistic understanding of rhythm.)

You hear a lot of backbeat in swing rhythm guitar even these days. It's bullshit.

[grahambop]

Just give me Billy Higgins any day.

[christianm77]

Billy's are good at drums. Billy Higgins, Billy Hart.

I also like Bill Stewart.

[grahambop]

Billy's are good at drums. Billy Higgins, Billy Hart.

I also like Bill Stewart.

I remember seeing Billy Higgins at Ronnie Scotts a few times. He seemed to have a tiny drum kit with little more than bass, snare and 1 tom. But he had this enormous ride cymbal which looked about twice as wide as most people's, and this seemed to be his main focus. He produced this glorious, sizzling, dancing sound on it the whole time, it was such an amazing groove. The rest of the kit just seemed to be there to provide a bit of light accompaniment to that cymbal.

[mrcee]

You can't overstate the importance of the ride cymbal too much.

[mrcee]

Yeah the backbeat can be such a crutch can't it?

But I don't like complexity for the sake of complexity. Complex can be great, but it has to grooving. This is why Gadd is great. And you can't say Gadd doesn't play the gig. Have you heard on Jim Hall's Concierto by the way?

Vintage Soul and Motown is where it's at for me for pop drumming. There is a great backbeat but it's never overstated.

Now: "Make it groove, let's hit the 2 and 4 because everyone knows they're the cool beats!" (Simplistic understanding of rhythm.)

You hear a lot of backbeat in swing rhythm guitar even these days. It's bullshit.

Let's hear it for Al Jackson Jr.!!

the hat more than the ride

[christianm77]

You can't overstate the importance of the ride cymbal too much.

Unless you are trying to play acoustic rhythm guitar in which case they become THE ENEMY

[christianm77]

In reply to mrcees post that seems to have vanished - what should drummers do with acoustic rhythm guitar?

It's ok to ride the cymbal from time to time, but the big modern ride cymbal is too sustaining for that type of work. Also it will completely obliterate unamplified guitar.

Pre war rhythm sections are all about short, decaying sounds and everyone working together as one big instrument.

You need a lot snare and hi hat, and a proper four to the bar bass drum. Guitar plays snare and hat, bass goes with bass drum.

Getting the instrumentation right helps a lot. Modern jazz kits aren't really set up for this.

But basically tell the drummer to go listen to Jo Jones in the 30s and 40s...

It seems to me that jazz drummers find this very hard because ride cymbal is the absolute foundation of their playing. Classically trained players often have better use of instrumentation in this context. And some of them can swing, too!

Jonathon Stouts band has an excellent period style drummer btw

[jtr]

2) Listen to jazz. You don't need to listen to everything. No one expects that, and I used to get intimidated with the apparent depth of other people's listening, where in fact I should have been open to recommendations. While it is important IMO to get some overview of the history, in the end their will be a few players that really speak to you, and this is a good thing. Listen to them a lot. Find a hero (or three) and listen to them a lot.

I see this kind of thing a lot in jazz advice, and I'm surprised it needs to be said. Are there aspiring jazz musicians out there who aren't already passionate jazz fans? I sure hope they're not getting into it for the money or the fame.

[mrcee]

In reply to mrcees post that seems to have vanished - what should drummers do with acoustic rhythm guitar?

It's ok to ride the cymbal from time to time, but the big modern ride cymbal is too sustaining for that type of work. Also it will completely obliterate unamplified guitar.

Pre war rhythm sections are all about short, decaying sounds and everyone working together as one big instrument.

You need a lot snare and hi hat, and a proper four to the bar bass drum. Guitar plays snare and hat, bass goes with bass drum.

Getting the instrumentation right helps a lot. Modern jazz kits aren't really set up for this.

But basically tell the drummer to go listen to Jo Jones in the 30s and 40s...

It seems to me that jazz drummers find this very hard because ride cymbal is the absolute foundation of their playing. Classically trained players often have better use of instrumentation in this context. And some of them can swing, too!

Jonathon Stouts band has an excellent period style drummer btw

Thanks for the reply. I had deleted my msg to re do it and got called away. In the interim I did watch some Basie with Jo Jones.

[Hep To The Jive]

Yeah the backbeat can be such a crutch can't it?

You hear a lot of backbeat in swing rhythm guitar even these days. It's bullshit.

YOu can hear backbeat in Western swing type rhythm guitar a lot, like this guy Whit Smith I'm transcribing now, I love it! La pompe is leaning toward accentuating 2 &4, isn't it? Plus, if you good with 2 and 4 in your rhythm you can get a lot of Octoberfest gigs, if ya know what I mean

I feel like more traditional pure swing a la Freddie Green doesn't assume backbeat indeed. But... it's not the only way to play IMO.

[mrcee]

I'd rather hear good programmed drums than a not so good real drummer. Not for jazz but for contemporary dance music and such things.