On the importance of basic scales and arpeggios

[grahambop]

Why not?

All the things you are

Autumn Leaves

But Beautiful

Corcovado

Georgia ..... Stardust.

Thou dost protest too much, Jeff.

There seems to be a group think theme that I don't play solos. Or the other one, that I "step all over the vocals" with my second guitar tracks. Which is it tonight?

If the theme of the post is "making solos out of chord shapes - yes or no", and with your extreme and much admired facility with recording off cell phones and video recorders and the like, why should you not do what you request of me?

Hopefully I may be excused from this contest as I have already done 2 of these tunes (Autumn Leaves - youtube, and But Beautiful - soundcloud) and you can see/hear them via the links below, if you have a burning desire to do so!

[Boston Joe]

Yes, Lawson-Stone is one typical example of a Punk Rocker. Proto.

In other words, your 'punk rock" reference is completely wrong, IMO. For example, many punk musicians I know and have played with they'd finished at least 6 grades of elementary music school (as per schooling system over here), meaning they can read pretty well and play their main instruments too. Be it the violin, or piano, or ...

Just makes no sense to blame it on punk rock when you know much before punk rock ever emerged pop/folk/rock (god forbid Jazz) - musicians (guitar players) were as they are. They could play some tunes good enough to make girls smile and then some.

I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here, but just let me say that just because I call it punk rock damage doesn't mean I think it all derives from punk. I just think the attitude (theory knowledge/technical ability impedes creativity) finds its fullest expression in the punk attitude. I'm aware that there were/are punk players with chops. Point is, I'm not "blaming" anything on punk rock. I'm just using it to describe an attitude.

And hey, I had that attitude for a long time, even though I was never all that into punk.

[christianm77]

I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here, but just let me say that just because I call it punk rock damage doesn't mean I think it all derives from punk. I just think the attitude (theory knowledge/technical ability impedes creativity) finds its fullest expression in the punk attitude. I'm aware that there were/are punk players with chops. Point is, I'm not "blaming" anything on punk rock. I'm just using it to describe an attitude.

And hey, I had that attitude for a long time, even though I was never all that into punk.

Punk itself, not really... Although the Pistols and the Clash certainly had their moments.... But it did clear the air. I'm not a huge prog fan (although I do have a soft spot for some of that music) I would tend to say that I prefer post-punk to prog in general - it forced a lot of musicians to streamline what they were doing, in a good way...

That said, late 60's early '70s is probably what I am drawn to when I listen to actual albums as opposed to tracks - the golden age of the album really. At the moment a lot of music still seems to be drawing its reference points from this era...

In terms of John Lydon - what he did immediately after the Pistols was pretty interesting IMO

Check out the bassline....

[matt.guitarteacher]

I was joking about the song being a cha-cha only to learn the original was a foxtrot! That is interesting though the two versions don't sound much akin to the other. So perhaps one could say that the changes and the interpretation of the Goodman version sounds more bluesy than the original foxtrot.

As for the complexity of the 'cycle changes', they are rather simple to me. Lots of sevenths - straight and major sevenths with that 4/4 driving rhythm time. I will have listen to In A Mellow Tone.

And Lawson, perhaps you would like to check out the recent Rory Hoffman thread on the forum - yet another blind player who plays the guitar on his lap but in a unique style. I'm sure he would have something to say about his use of visualization of the fret board.

In relation to Matt's questions:

Do you think Brecker/Bird ever worked out basic scales and arps? - Does the sun rise in the East?

If so, why do you think that they did? - 'Cause that is how you relate melody to harmony.

Is the point of practice only to play things which are complete melodic ideas? - No. But it does help to have a concept of phrasing.

If so, why not complete phrases, choruses, entire pieces? - I think that would be called "playing a song".

What differentiates practice from "performing by yourself"? - No audience?

Again, how do you think Brecker/Bird's practice was different from their performance. - They got paid to perform.

Meanwhile I will continue to try to foxtrot over the Goodman version. Actually, apart from its historical interest in terms of Charlie Christian and his playing, I think the song is old fashioned and dull. I spent some time messing with this tune and can't say that it is very interesting to me anyway. Curious song choice coming from Jeff.

Start a thread on something you actually care about. Better yet, go to the the gear section, select a topic you DON'T care about. Tell everyone engaged in THAT conversation how silly they are for worrying so much about gear or whatever, talk down to them, talk about how you don't need so much gear, make little snide, sarcastic remarks.

But wait a minute. That's kind of the definition of trolling. Maybe you better NOT do that. Hmmm...

You don't show how much you DON'T care about something by talking about it incessantly, beating it into the ground like a dead horse. Yet, the hundred thread which you have completely derailed. The kind of posts you've made in this thread absolute poison.

[mr. beaumont]

Actually, apart from its historical interest in terms of Charlie Christian and his playing, I think the song is old fashioned and dull. I spent some time messing with this tune and can't say that it is very interesting to me anyway. Curious song choice coming from Jeff.

My tastes do trend more modern, but I come at music and improvising from a very old fashioned perspective. I've transcribed more Charlie than ive transcribed anybody else. And Charlie's Rose Room solo is a little self contained master class in how to blow like him.

So since we were talking about playing out of chord shapes (or not) I thought it was a fine choice for a tune. But I think it's time for a new thread, don'tcha think? Did you record last night?

By the way, the Goodman/CC version does start on an Ab riff, I know some folks were eager to prove Jay's ears wrong, but he heard it right.

[christianm77]

My tastes do trend more modern, but I come at music and improvising from a very old fashioned perspective. I've transcribed more Charlie than ive transcribed anybody else. And Charlie's Rose Room solo is a little self contained master class in how to blow like him.

So since we were talking about playing out of chord shapes (or not) I thought it was a fine choice for a tune. But I think it's time for a new thread, don'tcha think? Did you record last night?

By the way, the Goodman/CC version does start on an Ab riff, I know some folks were eager to prove Jay's ears wrong, but he heard it right.

I do the Ab riff on my version too. It's cool.

[christianm77]

This version's hip too.

I love this tune actually, probably because it is really old fashioned:

[mr. beaumont]

I do the Ab riff on my version too. It's cool.

You gotta do the riffs on these old tunes, in my opinion. They're way too damn fun to leave out.

[destinytot]

When I ran a quick YouTube search on the late Garrison Fewell, who is credited with a great idea in the 'Chords vs Functions' thread, I found a short video in which he uses chord shapes in order to access triads.

@3:56, he says, "Most of these fingerings come from the triad fingerings."

As the title suggests, this particular use of triads is a strategy for producing melodic phrases and improvising lines in a bigger/wider harmonic context than the triads' actual notes:

[Vladan]

I'm not quite sure I get what you're saying here, but just let me say that just because I call it punk rock damage doesn't mean I think it all derives from punk. I just think the attitude (theory knowledge/technical ability impedes creativity) finds its fullest expression in the punk attitude. I'm aware that there were/are punk players with chops. Point is, I'm not "blaming" anything on punk rock. I'm just using it to describe an attitude.

And hey, I had that attitude for a long time, even though I was never all that into punk.

My point is that what you said is one stereotyped and trendy way of labeling. If anything, punk rock attitude is "Buzz off, I'm good as I am and don't need that crap, although it somehow happens I already know it all.". That "impeded creativity" speak is not part of punk rock, as far as I'm aware. Punk is very DIY oriented, so you actually need a lot of theorizing and knowledge to make it happen, at the same time avoiding/ negating and using/ changing preceding classics efforts.

Of course, the moment I wrote this post, it all became wrong even if it was true before I started writing it, including this.

[destinytot]

Isn't Rose Room

Bb7 Eb7 Ab Ab7 Db Dbm etc?

I never understood why the tune was held to be challenging myself. Perhaps because it starts on II7?

Tea for Two - according to legend one of the two tunes that CC learned aside from blues (!) has more difficult changes I would say.

Anyway, here's my version of the tune. Could use clarinet too, but hey, budget...

I did learn the solo a while ago. Contains some very nice examples of IVm on V7 ;-)

Nice!

Taking the liberty of sharing a favourite (I particularly love the solo by Menno Daams at 3:20):

[Boston Joe]

My point is that what you said is one stereotyped and trendy way of labeling. If anything, punk rock attitude is "Buzz off, I'm good as I am and don't need that crap, although it somehow happens I already know it all.". That "impeded creativity" speak is not part of punk rock, as far as I'm aware. Punk is very DIY oriented, so you actually need a lot of theorizing and knowledge to make it happen, at the same time avoiding/ negating and using/ changing preceding classics efforts.

Of course, the moment I wrote this post, it all became wrong even if it was true before I started writing it, including this.

Whatever, man, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

[joe2758]

Whatever, man, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

now you're getting it!

[Boston Joe]

now you're getting it!

Oh, I've been done with arguing on the Internet for a long, long time.

[jasonc]

I think Benny Goodman's reason for calling Rose Room to stump Charlie wasn't because the changes are particularly difficult but rather he thought it would be a tune he just didn't know. If I remember correctly Rose Room was a tune that was popular on the coast at the time but not in the Midwest.

To the point of the OP...guitar pedagogy is rather lacking when compared to that of other instruments. Also, it has been my experience that most other instrumentalists have a much better command of their instrument technically than guitarists. Probably because they are taught that practicing scales and technique are good things and not that they should just play whatever they hear (which is probably something out of the scale anyway).

[Reg]

Yea... there is technical practice and developing expertise on your instrument... and then there is practicing performance, which may or may not incorporate that technical expertise on your instrument... very different subjects.

And generally your abilities to perform reflect both.

The same old debate of how to develop or use as reference for playing whatever your playing....harmonically or melodically,
Well if you don't know the differences... learn them. Again it's basic musicianship...you should know the differences.

They are not secrets... Sorry for short post.

[KirkP]

By the way, the Goodman/CC version does start on an Ab riff, I know some folks were eager to prove Jay's ears wrong, but he heard it right.

The Ab riff is the pickup I mentioned in my post. If shown on a chord chart, it should be indicated as a pickup or intro. It's not part of the A section.

Back to the original topic -- I'd say I'm arpeggio- or chord-oriented. When I'm soloing I tend to reference to a position I'd use to play the chord or arpeggio of the moment. I think that's an old-school approach and probably results in my paying "inside" more than I would if were more free to navigate scales without reference to arpeggios.

[christianm77]

My point is that what you said is one stereotyped and trendy way of labeling. If anything, punk rock attitude is "Buzz off, I'm good as I am and don't need that crap, although it somehow happens I already know it all.". That "impeded creativity" speak is not part of punk rock, as far as I'm aware. Punk is very DIY oriented, so you actually need a lot of theorizing and knowledge to make it happen, at the same time avoiding/ negating and using/ changing preceding classics efforts.

Of course, the moment I wrote this post, it all became wrong even if it was true before I started writing it, including this.

Thing I particularly like about punk is its emphasis on going out and doing music NOW as opposed to waiting to be a professional. I think I've always done this (to a fault perhaps!) and encourage my students to get out there playing as soon as possible.

[christianm77]

I think Benny Goodman's reason for calling Rose Room to stump Charlie wasn't because the changes are particularly difficult but rather he thought it would be a tune he just didn't know. If I remember correctly Rose Room was a tune that was popular on the coast at the time but not in the Midwest.

To the point of the OP...guitar pedagogy is rather lacking when compared to that of other instruments. Also, it has been my experience that most other instrumentalists have a much better command of their instrument technically than guitarists. Probably because they are taught that practicing scales and technique are good things and not that they should just play whatever they hear (which is probably something out of the scale anyway).

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I don't think pick technique is very well taught. But then most guitarists have crap right hand technique. Jazz players have to develop this, while many rock players get around it.

Obviously you have a classical pedagogy for fingerstyle that works very well and is very clear so good for teachers.

But teaching classical as opposed to rock tunes.... Well that rock student will have a lot more fun, but might be limiting themselves. But on the other hand you teach a kid to play classical left hand and they want to play like Jimi Hendrix. There's a clash.

You have to find a balance as a teacher, which is a real skill and not one I claim to have mastered.

I find teaching beginner's guitar very hard for this reason.

[Boston Joe]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I don't think pick technique is very well taught. But then most guitarists have crap right hand technique. Jazz players have to develop this, while many rock players get around it.

Obviously you have a classical pedagogy for fingerstyle that works very well and is very clear so good for teachers.

But teaching classical as opposed to rock tunes.... Well that rock student will have a lot more fun, but might be limiting themselves. But on the other hand you teach a kid to play classical left hand and they want to play like Jimi Hendrix. There's a clash.

You have to find a balance as a teacher, which is a real skill and not one I claim to have mastered.

I find teaching beginner's guitar very hard for this reason.

Interesting. I'm not really sure if my right hand technique is good or bad (which means it's probably bad). I'm not terribly fast, but I don't think I'd be terribly fast even if my technique were great. I just don't think my "fast-twitch" muscles are all that fast. In all honesty, I haven't really even thought about right hand technique for a lot of years.

As far as the classical/Hendrix divide - My first teacher (a rock guy) taught me always to keep my thumb on the back of the neck, but somehow or other, I've developed a left hand style that moves back and forth between that and the Hendrix hang-the-thumb-out-over-the-neck thing. I think I started doing that to get leverage for bends, but it was so long ago, that I don't really know.

My technique more or less works for me. I could probably change it, but at my age and after playing for 35+ years, it would take enormous effort. I'd rather put that effort into increasing my knowledge and vocab, so as to deploy the technique I do have more effectively.

[Vladan]

I think what you refer to as being pedagogy is what is known as methodics.

Also, as pkirk nicely explained somewhere above and as I've mentioned in one other thread, rather recently, given the apparent age and background of fellow forum members, pedagogy is absolutely a non issue here in any sense, what we need in place is some andragogy.

I think kids learning guitar in music schools properly, ... pedagogy, methodics ..., they know all the scales and have all the technique needed to play what's being put before them to play.

[christianm77]

I think what you refer to as being pedagogy is what is known as methodics.

Also, as pkirk nicely explained somewhere above and as I've mentioned in one other thread, rather recently, given the apparent age and background of fellow forum members, pedagogy is absolutely a non issue here in any sense, what we need in place is some andragogy.

I think kids learning guitar in music schools properly, ... pedagogy, methodics ..., they know all the scales and have all the technique needed to play what's being put before them to play.

Androgyny?

[Boston Joe]

Androgyny?

Andragogy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andragogy

[joe2758]

Androgyny?

[mr. beaumont]

The Ab riff is the pickup I mentioned in my post. If shown on a chord chart, it should be indicated as a pickup or intro. It's not part of the A section.
.

Agreed, I just wanted to make sure anybody didn't try and use it as a "gotcha!" on Targuit.