-
Re guitar players being a joke: tA lot if it has to do with the fact that most can't read. Also most have little understanding or appreciation of orchestral music. No understanding of much besides guitar music. Little theory or being able to handle real changes. Comping over everything and sounding like a mess. Playing too loud and not really listening.
Most guitar players aren't as sophisticated as most here on this forum.
-
10-02-2014 02:17 AM
-
Do a lot of jazz guitarists have interest in music outside of jazz? I guess I'd say not all guitarists have to be sophisticated for me to enjoy them. .. though Kurt Cobain probably wouldn't join an orchestra.
-
Yeah but I'm not talking about your interest to enjoy them. I'm talking about versatility and usefulness in an orchestra or playing with other reading orchestral musicians who have to be fairly well rounded to do that kind of gig.
-
I'd never join an orchestra ... I don't fit there. Like I said though neither did a lot of storyville musicians.
I don't see the point of using a hammer to try and make jigsaw pieces fit into puzzles they weren't meant for.
It is also said that many of count basies orchestra member couldn't sight read well.Last edited by fleaaaaaa; 10-02-2014 at 03:24 AM.
-
You seem to be missing the point.
-
Musicians don't disrespect guitarists who don't aspire to play in orchestras
and could possibly enjoy the music they do create.
The problems occur when they end up on the same gig together as Henry said.
In that many of us didn't come up through years of organized big ensemble experience,
it leaves us with some catching up to do when we appear in those situations.
Some musicians become cynical about players of the instrument and a guitarist has to
prove himself/herself starting with an expectation deficit.
-
I get a bit pissed off with the adoration of horn players and woodwinds. All they have to read is the melody line! If you want to praise someone for musicianship, consider piano and keyboard players who have to read two different clefs simultaneously with more than one note at a time... that is hard, not reading the single note melody that horn players do. At least classical and jazz guitarists handle polyphony. And reading music notation fluently is not that hard, though it make take years before you feel comfortable.
I repeat my recommendation for serious guitarists who want to become more proficient at sight reading - notation software. I'll not expand on the recommendation, as there is scant discussion on the Forums of the benefits. Maybe not too many here use any notation software, but it is a fabulous tool to improve your skills in multiple ways.
Jay
-
Like I have said many times... it's all good, no real good, bad, wright or wrong.
We can all play what we want, how we want etc... But when you perform with other musicians... live with most types of music in almost any situation... Musicianship comes into play. There are standards which define levels of musicianship... generally guitarist are towards the bottom of this list.
Whether this is actually true.... who cares. This is what or how guitarist are generally perceived. If I was to take 100 guitarist from this forum and auditioned them to determine levels of musicianship. What do you think would be the result, I don't know, but I wouldn't put much $ on great results. I hope I'm totally wrong... I would love to eat some crow or look like an as* etc...
I'm sure we all have great excuses, reasons, don't even care etc...but it doesn't change what it is.
fleaaaaa... there is nothing wrong with just playing guitar in any setting or in any style. In the end who cares. Enjoyment of life always works for me...
Targuit... I agree sight reading is just one of many required skills.
Henry and bako... great points.
-
What most guitarists lack in basic general musicianship.
-
There are standards which define levels of musicianship... generally guitarist are towards the bottom of this list. - Reg
What are the standards?
-
When the trumpet player, bass player or drummer have to continually lean over to the guitarists to tell him where he is, the message gets through. When asked to solo on some jazz tune the guitar player shyly plays blues in a wrong key and has no inkling what he's doing or what playing through or on changes mean. Wouldn't know a ii-V if it bit him.
I'm not so much disparaging guitar players, just my lot in life. I get INSTANT disrespect unless my reputation proceeds me, when it's announced I'm a guitarist in certain quarters. Rarely any more, but it's the role of guitar and the general sense of low musicianship. Most quality horn players can transpose their written parts on the spot, write charts for other players, add in harmony parts on the spot, look at chord changes and improvise a great solo sight unseen on the spot. Most guitar players can't and it's a shame because it's a harmonic instrument. Guitar is a very folksy instrument. Most learned it not in the classical sense, like most everyone else did. Most learned it by friend Bob showing him some licks and chords and a blues scale. Most everyone else learned by learning classical etudes and method books focusing on reading and musicianship.
So my thing, similar to Reg's, has been to help raise the musicianship level of guitar players. I teach with this in mind. Even beginning students. I PRETEND the guitar is an instrument every bit as "serious" as the clarinet. So I don't start out by teaching open chords and tablature. I start right in with reading music. Add some fun too, but damn it. Guitar is a musical instrument like other musical instruments, not the bastard child.Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-02-2014 at 01:18 PM.
-
For jazz at anything above "amateur" player, the following are expected.
Originally Posted by fleaaaaaa
sight read chord charts with unusual harmony and chord extensions. Sight read single notes. improvise *in the jazz tradition*. Know hundreds of tunes. Play fluently in 3/4, 5/4, 7/4 , and read more complicated meters. Play chord voicings that complement the other instruments. Comping with a piano player present. Comping with no piano player present. Comping various latin rhythms, especially bossa, samba, and clave. not losing the form. Listening to others without getting confused. maintaining a good tone and appropriate volume. Being able to write/contribute interesting arrangements or original tunes, and write out useable charts for the transposing instruments.
maybe others will add to this list. The bottom line is most of this doesn't matter if you are playing the standards you know well with your friends. But most of these items are considered "basic musicianship" in jazz above the amateur level, and sadly, most guitarists fall short, which is one reason we're having such a hard time replacing pianists, who can do all of this in their sleep.
I'm not suggesting you aint sh*t until you can do all this well, just that when I get called to play with people I respect and enjoy playing with, this is what I typically feel I have to be able to do. I'm not great at all of these, but good enough that I've found myself in a few really rewarding situations as a result. I wish I could read like adam rogers, and my odd meter playing is not as smooth as I wish.
-
"Benjamin, I have two words for you - 'notation software' " - think The Graduate and Mrs. Robinson...
Jokes aside, that is one of the benefits of classical training. After you've been used to playing Elizabethan lute music, Bach, and Britten, jazz standards harmony looks pretty familiar.
I urge notation software because, if you understand chord construction and theory, the rubber hits the road as the midi tracks you write, not BIAB. Once you figure out the learning curve, of course. Then again, I play in the notes on keyboards plus use the virtual fretboard to refine the harmonies. Best thing to simulate real players. And if it sounds like crap, well...can't blame anyone else.Last edited by targuit; 10-02-2014 at 11:50 AM.
-
I guess as someone who is new to jazz and someone whose background is rock I didn't realise how much there was to playing jazz. I just liked the sound of it so decided to start playing it, I guess I may never be a bonafide jazz player in some peoples mind. I just do my best to get by when I jam with people who are great jazz players and so far they've been gracious and supportive.
-
As most good jazz players are.
Really, remember, knowing a few things really well can get you very far. It's about depth, not breadth. Well, eventually it's about both
-
I don't know how inputting notes into notation software is going to help you on the bandstand. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't see how playing Elizabethan lute music is going to help you play Bird tunes. I use notation software all the time - Sibelius and before that two others. I always input by notes rather that keyboard or something. It's related to my writing on manuscript paper by hand, which I did for many, many, many years as a composer. I even got paid as an engraver before notation software was the thing or even available. I'm not sure I see it's relevance to this subject.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-02-2014 at 01:27 PM.
-
Hey flea... I understand what you mean. Playing music should be rewarding and fun, not a chore. But you seem to take many comments on this thread as personal attacks. Maybe this analogy will help. If someone asked "what will it take for me be able to play violin in a string quartet" and was given the answer "make sure you know the repertoire, have the expected control of technique and be a monster sight reader" no insult is meant: this is what is expected. If you go to a classical string quartet audition and you can play some bluegrass, read a little but not too well, you'll feel embarrassed and no matter how supportive and generous the other players are, they won't call you back. It's not personal, just a fact. Originally Posted by fleaaaaaa
Now for me, and others on this thread perhaps who you are suggesting are unsupportive, I understand the fun you can have playing jazz at any level. But the issue is the same as with the classical example: if you want to play at a higher level with better players you have to have not just more improv knowledge, but all the other musicianship.
It's not snobbery or unsupportive to say this, it's just a fact. And, just like Henry mentions, it happens to me occasionally that other players assume I can't read or play a certain style, because of their previous experiences with guitarists. I see examples from time to time of groups hiring a weak piano player rather than a better guitar player.
As you work your way up the levels of players you play with, playing jazz becomes much more intense and rewarding. Playing jazz with a killer rhythm section and great horn players is so freakin awesome: part of the motivation for recommending someone put in the work is that if they do, they'll get to experience something you can't get if your skills are not up to it. This isn't being unsupportive or ungracious, on the contrary it's telling you that if you put in the effort you are in for the ride of your life.
-
Very well said pkirk.
-
Pkirk,
I agree with Henry, very well said. However, the OP just wanted to add some jazz flavor to his rock playing, so while your points are excellent and well meaning they are way more than is needed in this instance. Just my interpretation.
-
Sure you do, Henry! It is your character - mine, too! You don't think that actually writing and composing music has helped you develop your musicianship? Really? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As far as learning classical music, technique, musical theory - that certainly helps your musicianship. Don't know about you, but I always found Bach to be a pretty good teacher. To put into the nitty gritty, if you can play fugues and partitas written by the greatest composer who ever lived, you have a pretty good handle on conventional harmony. Furthermore, if you play and are familiar with the works of modern composers like Britten, Martin, or even Villalobos, you are not phased by anything written by Monk, Bird, or Coltrane. And if you can compose and create jazz music on Sibelius, the step to the bandstand is not too difficult. The proof of musicianship is the music - does it sound like jazz and do people appreciate what you play. If you cannot write music with Sibelius that sounds like the real deal, you likely cannot play it either. The act of writing your own music or creating your own transcriptions is an act of musical creation. It does not happen by chance.
I find it vaguely amusing that you cannot entertain the notion that there really are musicians on the Forums. Seems a touch self-centered and egotistical, wouldn't you say? Not to be argumentative or anything....
JayLast edited by targuit; 10-02-2014 at 02:31 PM.
-
Has the OP even revisited this thread in recent days? I agree. My fault for not EVER following or adhering to the threads. Rarely do I take the time to read all the posts. I just don't have the time. So apologies. I know this upsets people. Originally Posted by snoskier63
-
Wha? Originally Posted by targuit
-
I never said you were being unsupportive or ungracious. I told you of a very good jam night I go to where people are supportive and gracious. Originally Posted by pkirk
I am sorry I took stuff personally here but I'm not very well at the moment, I am afraid. As things are right now I doubt I'll ever go to anything other than the jam night.
-
absolutely. This thread was derailed by the third or fourth posting, and devolved into a debate about something else. Originally Posted by snoskier63
-
get better! and have fun. And go get inspired by checking out other things. Originally Posted by fleaaaaaa
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos