Limiting yourself to triads

[fep]

A few of us went through the first half of the book... For some the progress was better than mine...

[princeplanet]

PP, I just went through my journey through the 1st half of The Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing by Elliot. I haven't been through any book/method that has helped me as much as this one. It has really got me comfortable with arpeggios and "making the changes" and playing the modes of the melodic minor scale and keeping my place in a tune.

This was good for me as it narrowed my focus, it creates an organized plan, and it doesn't overcomplicated things. The theory is easy and quick to learn, the book is more about what to practice than anything else, that's were the time is put in. I'm just a hobbiest like many of us. This improvement in my playing was over just a few months.

My favorite book -

Chapter 5 - Learning the connecting game, pretty mechanical sounding

Chapter 11 - altered scale is added to the connecting game, after all these years finally starting to become comfortable with the altered scale (and the melodic minor scale)

Ch 13 - Writing licks, now combining things and writing our own licks. This was fun...

Ch. 15 - inserting and disguising licks into tunes, trying to use the tools over tunes. At this point I've added some new and important tools to my toolbox.

Sounds like quite a sensible course, might check it out, cheers.

[Jonzo]

So, I have been really wood shedding my triads, and I tried improvising over some tunes with just triads as my framework, and I was surprised how well it worked out. It is pretty easy to find the 7 or b7 on the fly. Throw in some chromatic notes, and off you go.

I think I heard once that Stan Getz based his improvising on triads.

[AlsoRan]

Supposedly Wes Montgomery and other significant guitarists also used this approach at times.

I don't know how authors like Garrison Fewell are able to know this by listening but triad improvising also contributes to the three-finger left hand technique that many have used.

Now you are starting to make me thing I should have stuck with triads.

Maybe later...

Garrison Fewell's book, Jazz Improvisation, A Melodic Approach talks about using this technique exhaustively. Stacking various triads to achieve natural and altered tensions. He is feels it can be a way to better and faster travel up and down the fretboard.

[Jonzo]

Well, stacking triads is a lot more sophisticated than what I'm doing. I'm just simplifying 4 and 5 note chords into their basic triad. Eventually I want to have all of the seventh chords down cold too. This is just an intermediate phase.

[AlsoRan]

Well, stacking triads is a lot more sophisticated than what I'm doing. I'm just simplifying 4 and 5 note chords into their basic triad. Eventually I want to have all of the seventh chords down cold too. This is just an intermediate phase.

OK. That is why you mentioned it was relatively easier to find the 7ths/b7ths on the fly.

So you are basically building your chord knowledge from its basic triad form: root, third (whether flatted or not), and fifth (whether flatted or not).

That should serve as a valuable fallback as you progress.

[Jonzo]

I think of it more as a stepping stone. Three notes are easier to remember than four. Once you know three notes well, add the fourth.

[Gertrude Moser]

Thanks for the explanation.

So there are two perspectives. One is to just struggle through until you get it; the other is to break it down into intermediate steps. There are a lot of ways simplification can be done. You could start by just playing all the ones, then threes, then fives, then sevens. Then you could play pairs, then triads. You could also start with a visual aide. (Does Elliot recommend this?). You can make things easier by going slower, or working on shorter passages.

I'm just wondering about other methods people in the "make it easier" camp have used.

The whole struggle v. simplify question is an interesting one. I am aware of the concept of beneficial difficulties, but it seems to be one of those concepts that works, except when it doesn't. If something is too easy, boredom sets in. If something is too hard, frustration sets in.

"Struggling" is never the right thing to do. Always break any difficulty down to the simplest, most digestable size that you can. Struggling causes you to ingrain your (repeated) mistakes and then those errors become what you play thanks to the double edged sword of muscle memory.

[princeplanet]

"Struggling" is never the right thing to do. Always break any difficulty down to the simplest, most digestable size that you can. Struggling causes you to ingrain your (repeated) mistakes and then those errors become what you play thanks to the double edged sword of muscle memory.

Interesting perspective. For me personally I feel that all I have learned in Jazz is through struggling with a concept that was beyond me, until it wasn't. Was it Shorter or someone that once said one should always be practicing what one can't play. Made sense to me. Maybe there's a dark side....

[GAN]

A few of us went through the first half of the book... For some the progress was better than mine...

if I could play that well, I might be happy with my playing. Who is he?

[AlsoRan]

"Struggling" is never the right thing to do. Always break any difficulty down to the simplest, most digestable size that you can. Struggling causes you to ingrain your (repeated) mistakes and then those errors become what you play thanks to the double edged sword of muscle memory.

Funny you should say this.

While practicing using arpeggios, it was not long before I noticed if I stayed on the first three strings, I was starting to feel comfortable. But when I went back to all six strings, I started losing my place and less sure how each note was going to sound.

Eventually, I added the fourth string and was able to integrate it as well.

This illustrates your point and it has been key for me making progress.

[fep]

if I could play that well, I might be happy with my playing. Who is he?

That's fellow forum member Steve Bellinger.

In the Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing study group threads I thought that 'SteveBellinger' and 'FrankLearns' did the best as far as improving through the course. I thought I improved too, but not as much as them.

[Gertrude Moser]

Interesting perspective. For me personally I feel that all I have learned in Jazz is through struggling with a concept that was beyond me, until it wasn't. Was it Shorter or someone that once said one should always be practicing what one can't play. Made sense to me. Maybe there's a dark side....

Of course you have to practice what you can't play; that doesn't mean you should struggle. Identify the problem, then break it down into sub sets and work your way through them…then piece them together.

[fep]

You could also start with a visual aide. (Does Elliot recommend this?).

He has those grid with dot diagrams that represent fingerings on the neck. He has them for all the scales and arpeggios he introduces.

When I think about the book, it certainly doesn't have any revolutionary theories. Any theory in the book can be easily found and has been discussed on this forum. The strength of the book, in my opinion, is the organized and structured practice approach that it leads you through.

[AlsoRan]

Here is the aide I am using Jonzo.

Over on the "Thinking Ahead" thread by princeplanet, I posted my first attempt at using it.

My non-musician friends thought it was listenable and showed some promise for a first try at using the tools.

Anywhere, here is the visual aid and after a couple of hours of using it, I was able to "see" it clearly in my mind.

Ah but alas, it has started to fade since then so I am going to have to continue to practice it until it is ingrained, assuming my old, alcohol-damaged, fifty year-old brain can still do such things.

[Jonzo]

I guess the point of this thread is that it is a difficult exercise at first, and there are a variety of ways to work up to it. I chose to do the exercise with triads at first, because I want to get away from visual aides as soon as possible, and I see the triads as useful to know. I have no idea if this is "better" than other methods. There are a lot of ways to make the exercises easier. You can start by working on just adjacent pairs of chords at first. You can go really slow. They all lead to the same place.

This connecting game is just such a great exercise, because if forces you out of the comfort zone of whatever pattern you use to practice an arpeggio, by making you jump into it at any point. This is exactly what you need to do while improvising.

By the way, the teacher at a jazz violin camp that my son attended had students working on the same thing.

[Jonzo]

[Double post deleted.]

[cosmic gumbo]

Take triads up a notch to another seriously fruitful concept. I ain't selling nothing, just things to explore.

http://www.jodyjazz.com/images/dvd/georgemaster.pdf

[caulker68]

When moving to the next chord you go to a nearby chord tone and start the next arpeggio from there. In general, for the first half of the book, you play arpeggios for the chord.

[tacofarm]

I don't have the book but have been working in staying in one position and playing the chord arpeggios to standards that I've memorized. First I play all arpeggios up, then down, then up down alternating, and finally just playing what comes naturally. Playing with metronome at 60 now, all eighth notes and it's been really helping me so far. I plan on adding extensions and playing from the 3rd up too. Probably will go 3 5 7 9, then practice 5 7 9 11, and so on.