A question about scale fingerings

[Cunamara]

[QUOTE=ECHOPLEX;245374]

. But when I began to check out where and how most guitar teachers were leading guitar students...

I know what you saying Reg,i was talking to a young kid recently who was taking lessons from a "professional guitar teacher",i asked him what he had been learning over the year he had been with him and he proceeded to pull out sheets upon sheets of guitar tab of popular classic rock tunes.This guy knew nothing about how any of these tunes were put together.Some of the things he had been told by this so called teacher were scary to say the least.Unfortunately when i tried to explain that this was not the path to becoming a musician and began to explain a few basics to him,i saw him losing interest very rapidly.So i left him to wallow in his world of tab.

It depends on what the student wants. Some- most, probably- just want to be able to play some songs at parties or sitting around the house. They want to have a little fun, maybe impress someone to improve their chances of getting laid, that sort of thing.

A few want to dig into music, to learn how it works, to create something. When I first started taking jazz guitar lessons a depressing number of years ago, my teacher spent a lot of time gauging what it was I wanted to learn. He had me into jazz at Gmaj7...

[scottcookmusic]

Hi RyanM.

How can I figure out if a song really is in pentatonic, I always played by ear without knowing what scale I'm using. Do I play the pentatonic scale over a song while it's running and listen if it fits to know it's within that scale? Some are obvious to me like Twinkle twinkle is in the Major Scale. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot.

Hey 1313,

One tune worth checking out, off the top of my head (and considering your expressed interest in jazz), is Kenny Burrell's version of "Chitlins Con Carne", on his (great) record Midnight Blue. You can play both the head and his solo using familiar C minor pentatonic patterns.

[jtizzle]

Hi RyanM.

How can I figure out if a song really is in pentatonic, I always played by ear without knowing what scale I'm using. Do I play the pentatonic scale over a song while it's running and listen if it fits to know it's within that scale? Some are obvious to me like Twinkle twinkle is in the Major Scale. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot.

Songs aren't "in pentatonic". Pentatonic isn't a key. Jazz tunes aren't really in set keys either though. You can obviously tell when something is major or minor though. If something is in Cmajor, then you can use anything C major based and it will work. That includes C major pentatonic, Cmajor and all it's derived modes, and even more out things like C augmented major (3rd mode of melodic minor). That's some advanced stuff though.
As others have said, don't limit yourself to fingerings. And definitely don't limit yourself to pentatonics. There's far much nicer note choices you can use over common chords. For now try to work past the pentatonic sound, and don't just transpose scale fingerings to other keys by shifting the fingering. Learn the notes, when you play a note in a scale, say the note to yourself to reinforce it on you. There's a lot of movement in jazz and you're gonna have to be all over the fretboard, a single fingering might not suffice and you'll need to be able to work out something on the spot with your ear.
In the meantime, work on the tune Summertime. The melody is mostly derived from A minor pentatonic with some nice harmony that allows you to go outside of it easily. Use the Mark Levine jazz theory book as a resource on what to work on, look at the different types of scales and work on it to get it in your ear.

[JohnRoss]

Songs aren't "in pentatonic". Pentatonic isn't a key... You can obviously tell when something is major or minor though. If something is in Cmajor, then you can use anything C major based and it will work. That includes C major pentatonic, Cmajor and all it's derived modes, and even more out things like C augmented major (3rd mode of melodic minor).

That is not very helpful and even more misleading. For a kick-off, you're quibbling about a preposition - OK, songs aren't "in pentatonic," but they can perfectly well be pentatonic. Much Scottish folk music, most Chinese folk and pop music, is based on pentatonic scales, and if you have something that is genuinely pentatonic and you start playing full-blown major scales, you will spoil the effect, so what was the point in your playing the stuff in the first place? You try sitting in on a ceilidh and trotting out your augmented majors and see the looks you get.

How can I figure out if a song really is in pentatonic,

I think the biggest clue is that there is no leading note. In fact, pentatonic scales have no semitone interval at all, but the leading note is the most striking absence. The leading note is the top note of the scale before it rises to the octave, e.g. B in the key of C. And the most common way for a melody to 'finish' is leading note - tonic, B - C. Pentatonic tunes just don't do that (though it's common for tunes to be pentatonic all the way through then change right at the end, sorry about that). The highest note in the major pentatonic scale is the 6th (A), and the highest in the minor pentatonic scale is the minor 7th (Bb in C minor pentatonic), which doesn't work the same as the leading note, either. Semi-tone intervals have what is called the 'semi-tone pull', when you hear a B, you expect the next note to be a C. When you hear a Bb, the next note could be anything.

But the best way is to learn a few pentatonic tunes. Seeing as you mention 'Twinkle Twinkle', there are very few pentatonic nursery rhymes (there's a reason for that, semi-tones are very easy to sing). One of the few exceptions is "Old McDonald." If you play it through in C, you'll notice that there is no B (or F) in the melody (harmony is something else). And if you mess around with the melody and start playing B naturals, you will completely change the 'feel' of it.

[RyanM]

Hi RyanM.

How can I figure out if a song really is in pentatonic, I always played by ear without knowing what scale I'm using. Do I play the pentatonic scale over a song while it's running and listen if it fits to know it's within that scale? Some are obvious to me like Twinkle twinkle is in the Major Scale. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot.

I mean if you figure out the melody of a song, learn to play it and look at what notes it uses in relation to the key. If it only uses the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th scale degrees of the key, then you could say the melody uses the major pentatonic scale.

Or another way to put it is if the melody is completely diatonic and does not use (or rarely) the 4th or 7th of the key, which have the most tension, being half-steps away from chord tones. e.g. The notes C D E G and A in the key of C. (The Minor pentatonic is 1, b3, 4, 5, b7).

Off the top of my head, here's an example of a modern pop song: Sunday Morning by Maroon 5 (I had to transcribe/arrange this recently); the chord progression is a ii V I in the key of C... which would be "Jazzy" sounding to most people... the chords played are more like Dmin9, G13, Cmaj9... but anyways, the vocal melody throughout the tune is entirely C major pentatonic, which keeps the song very simple. I think John Mayer songs are usually the same way.

[Patrick2]

There are a few things going on...
1) guitar neck mechanics... you need a fingering system that works over the entire neck, that will allow you to move seamlessly up or down, and make jumps when necessary.

2) Your teaching yourself... or at least becoming aware of Harmony ...
simply put... the arrangement of notes and the relationships between them.

Most think of Harmony as the vertical aspects, chords etc.. and melody(counterpoint) as the horizontal aspects, linear notes. There all going on all the time...

Your going to need more than your ears in jazz, at least until you get to that point where your ears have developed enough to be able to hear what's going on.

For example, as was somewhat stated above... a simple pattern of notes... Your Cmin scale... can sound differently... create a different mood, simply by having different notes from that scale define the tonality or modality, which notes have the relationships which create the mood.

This Cmin note collection can have any type of function, depending on how and where it is used. Function can be thought of as where and how the note collection feels like it wants to move or not move.

Just as you need a starting point, a reference point for your neck mechanics, your fingerings, you also need starting point, references for your theory/harmonic understandings. Here is something I posted about fingering, what I use, from a thread I have going in the theory section, check it out and if looks like might help... ask whatever.

Reg

1) Fingerings... I'm a position player, I base all my fingerings or how I see and hear and get out what I hear from positions. (1st finger determines position).

I use different fingerings to help imply different styles. Same notes played in one position have a jazz feel, while when played with a different fingering will sound like rock, blues etc...

I base all my fingerings off 6th string roots and use 2nd finger for those roots...which creates all 1st finger stretches. This is my starting point of reference... My mechanical method of feeling and not having to look at the neck to hear or see where I am. It works well for me.

My reasoning was... my 2nd finger is the strongest, and my 1st finger has the most mobility... which lead to 2nd finger as base and 1st finger for stretches.

There are other fingering... 1st finger, and 4th finger based and some 3rd, 4th finger stretches or combinations of 1st and 4th, hybrids and special purpose etc... I do use many of those. But they are all used in reference to my 2nd finger base starting point.

Everything I do and play in music has a beginning, a starting point, a reference. From there I have methods of using, creating and developing relationships. This doesn't mean I always go through the process of relating to the beginning... I've trained myself... and my instincts, I trust them. My reactions even when spontaneous are really somewhat organized.

So I'll go through and make examples and charts of fingerings and make short video of hand positions etc... maybe wait on the vid for better material.

I somewhat use the same mechanical system for comping...
I use root 6 or 6th string root chords along with Root 5 and root 4. I also see and can use root 3 chords but not much. Those are my starting points... references for voicings and harmonic development.

I usually just voice my lead line, the top note, or have line going on in bass notes. All with reference to my position and what approach I'm using, same with soloing... I don't simple hear a line and play it. I hear the line in context with a harmonic approach. Just as you hear a melodic line or chord progression. What harmonic approach(es) I'm also hearing have influence on the melodic line or chords I'm referencing and developing.

This fingering and mechanical references may be a little boring at first, at least I hope so, but my approaches for actually comping and soloing won't be boring. They will help you understand different systems of playing the same collection notes with different implications.
Best Reg
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Bada bing, bada boom, bada bang!!!! There it is!! Well said. This post just extended, for free, about $500 worth of the private tutelage you would get you from an advanced jazz guitar instructor! Sounds almost like Reg studied directly with William Leavitt at Berkely. Fingerings absolutely rule!! The 1st finger determines the position . . . the 2nd finger rule is that the second finger never moves. FS1 indicates a 1st finger stretch . . . (2nd finger never moves) . . . FS4 indicates a 4th finger stretch . . . (2nd finger never moves) As you practice the fingerings, verbally call out the finger and the interval. Don't worry about the notes. Know the intervals. Learn and understand all avaliable tensions.

Learn the names of the fingerings. Example; one of many G dominant 7th arpeggio fingerings name 1st-5th. That means find the root on the on the 5th string with your first finger (in this case at the 10th fret). If you do that, and you know the intervals as root, 3rd, perfect 5th, m7th, 8va-root, 3rd, perfect 5th, m7th . . . (2nd finger never moves out of position) . . . then you own the fingering.

[jtizzle]

That is not very helpful and even more misleading. For a kick-off, you're quibbling about a preposition - OK, songs aren't "in pentatonic," but they can perfectly well be pentatonic. Much Scottish folk music, most Chinese folk and pop music, is based on pentatonic scales, and if you have something that is genuinely pentatonic and you start playing full-blown major scales, you will spoil the effect, so what was the point in your playing the stuff in the first place? You try sitting in on a ceilidh and trotting out your augmented majors and see the looks you get.

I'm correcting a mistake which would give him bad looks if he ever goes to a jam session. In all honesty, if someone came into a jam session and asked me "wanna play Summertime in A minor pentatonic?" I'd be like "what?".

Scottish, Chinese, and Pop have a lot of pentatonic, but this is a jazz forum. Any question I read I'll answer in a jazz sense, which I believe in the end is his goal if he joined a jazz guitar forum, right? If not, what stopped him from going on yahoo answer? And jazz does have a lot of pentatonic stuff in it too, but it's not limited to such thing, and goes way further out than those other styles of music that you mentioned.

If something is "genuinely pentatonic" and you start playing pentatonic, that's cool. If you like how it sounds, good for you. If you go to a jam session, call a tune, and play a solo based solely on standard pentatonics, which is what we're talking about, I don't see your career going very far. Standard pentatonics get pretty repetitive, but if that's your thing, go join a rock cover band. There's pentatonics that sound good and interesting but that involves reharmonization and superimposition.

Now, tell me how playing something like, say, Summertime, or even a blues like Bags Groove or Sonny Moon For Two for the sake of the pentatonic example..., and take it out of the pentatonic sound (basically getting out of the A minor pentatonic or Bb) will spoil the tune? Do you listen to jazz? Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that guys like Kurt Rosenwinkel, Jonathan Kreisberg (both have GREAT versions of Summertime and blues tunes taking it way out), or Peter Bernstein (who goes really out on many blues tunes), or even Sonny Rollins, Wes Montgomery, Bill Evans (three greats), are/were spoiling music, because they took something based on a pentatonic scale and went out with it?

[JohnRoss]

Well, you're still not being helpful, and you're still being misleading.

I'm correcting a mistake which would give him bad looks if he ever goes to a jam session. In all honesty, if someone came into a jam session and asked me "wanna play Summertime in A minor pentatonic?" I'd be like "what?".

That wouldn't be particularly helpful, either. There's nothing wrong with saying that Summertime is played in X minor pentatonic, the fact that the 'pentatonic' is too much information for most gigging musicians doesn't mean it's wrong. And we're supposed to be the nice guys, not the sneery dorks.

Scottish, Chinese, and Pop have a lot of pentatonic, but this is a jazz forum. Any question I read I'll answer in a jazz sense, which I believe in the end is his goal if he joined a jazz guitar forum, right?

Unhelpful. And misleading. And what I said was "Chinese folk and pop," i.e., Chinese folk and Chinese pop. Not that it matters.

If something is "genuinely pentatonic" and you start playing pentatonic, that's cool. If you like how it sounds, good for you. If you go to a jam session, call a tune, and play a solo based solely on standard pentatonics, which is what we're talking about, I don't see your career going very far. Standard pentatonics get pretty repetitive, but if that's your thing, go join a rock cover band.

Unhelpful.

There's pentatonics that sound good and interesting but that involves reharmonization and superimposition.

I think it's my turn to say "What?" I mean... Come on. What!?
This is very not helpful. And misleading.

Now, tell me how playing something like, say, Summertime, or even a blues like Bags Groove or Sonny Moon For Two for the sake of the pentatonic example..., and take it out of the pentatonic sound (basically getting out of the A minor pentatonic or Bb) will spoil the tune? Do you listen to jazz? Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that guys like Kurt Rosenwinkel, Jonathan Kreisberg (both have GREAT versions of Summertime and blues tunes taking it way out), or Peter Bernstein (who goes really out on many blues tunes), or even Sonny Rollins, Wes Montgomery, Bill Evans (three greats), are/were spoiling music, because they took something based on a pentatonic scale and went out with it?

Utter bollocks. I didn't say not playing pentatonic would spoil the tune, I said it would spoil the effect of the pentatonic sound, which is obvious, if you stop playing pentatonic, you no longer have that effect. And you. Still. Haven't. Been. Helpful. OP asked how to identify a pentatonic melody. And all you can do is parade a list of people you have in your record collection. Wow, you have at least 6 CD's.

[jtizzle]

I don't think you understood that that last post was addressed to you, not intending to be helpful towards 1313. I'm also not sure if you read my first post entirely if you're going by the "unhelpful" argument, then. More than half of my first post explained how he should learn the pentatonic scale (or any scale, for that matter) as opposed to shifting a shape with mindless fingerings, which leads me to believe you haven't even read the full thread.

And I also do not know what is misleading about telling him about things related to his question which he didn't directly ask. I have/had teachers who give me more information than I can handle. Is it misleading? Not to me at least. I look into the topic and get a good ground on it myself, go back to the lesson and ask questions. In fact, when I was starting out, my teacher had me doing an exercise where I was playing the diatonic scales and arpeggios to the chords of Stella By Starlight, in time while connecting chord tones. He talked to me about the different scales I could use other than the major derived scales, such as the octatonic scale over dominant chords. I looked into it, practiced it a bit, came back next week and showed him what I did. And I probably wouldn't have gotten to that point of practice til a few months later, but it was fun to know how far I can take what seems as really boring at the moment and transform it into something weird and fun. The same thing I do to my students, I mention things that are quite far from the lesson, but next time they come back having gotten some grounds on the subject and I proceed to teach them more about it/how to practice it. I honestly don't see anything wrong with mentioning, in this case, the different kinds of scales he could use to play over something that could also be pentatonic.

[scottcookmusic]

I think the biggest clue is that there is no leading note.

In addition to this, I think that it's definitely worth pointing out (especially given the repertoire that we're speaking about) that the pentatonic scale cannot create the interval of a tritone (aug4th/dim5th). This interval is really quite distinct in its ability to define a key...

As a quick example, the notes of the C major pentatonic scale, <C,D,E,G,A>, are common to the keys C major, G major, and F major. If you add the note B, you limit the possibilities to C major and G major; similarly, if you add F, you've got C major and F major as possibilities. With the <B,F>-tritone added to <C,D,E,G,A>, there's no question.