The Famous CAGED System

[richard vandyne]

i am going over the caged again and i am having trouble comprehending the use of the system. is it only to show where chords are found? outside of showing the chords up and down the neck(some of which i don,t think anyone would ever use,) what good is this system. i am using the old fashion way of finding the notes by playing in 5 or six different positions.is there any reason to go back to caged???

[fumblefingers]

well that's a little bit like saying that there's no need to use different fingerings for each piano scale - you can simply use whatever fingering happens.

[bobby d]

i am going over the caged again and i am having trouble comprehending the use of the system. is it only to show where chords are found? outside of showing the chords up and down the neck(some of which i don,t think anyone would ever use,) what good is this system. i am using the old fashion way of finding the notes by playing in 5 or six different positions.is there any reason to go back to caged???

CAGED is 5 different positions. Yes chords can be found at each one, but so can scales, arpeggios, riffs etc. Where did you come across the CAGED system? I got it from Joe Pass materials and he explains it quite well.

I find it hard to believe you wouldn't use some of the chords in each position. If you're gonna play Jazz, chordal theory gets much deeper than this.

[brwnhornet59]

Richard, the system is set up to make it easier to stay oriented as you move through positions up the neck by relating the scales to chord shapes that are well known to most players. These positions cross through all of the other possible positions that are available as well.

You should become adept at using any and all of these basic chord shapes and their variations as well as the scales and arps based from them at will.

[richard vandyne]

the reason i brought this up is that the only info i have gotten is how to find the 5 chords . i have,nt seen any scales related directly to the caged sym they only give a reference to pentatonic scales which dosen,t seem directly related to caged. at that point i felt i would be better off to study the pentatonics and find a more comfortable way to play the chords. the g and d are buggers for me and if i had to play them at 250 bpm i would never make it.

[JazzReggie]

You can related the CAGED system to chords, scales and arpeggios. This two part article might help you visualize it:

The CAGED System - Part I
The CAGED System - Part II

You can of course extend this to other scales/modes, and you've already seen it working for the pentatonic scales. Everyone has their own take on CAGED, with slightly altered diagrams and fingerings, but I think this is a nice one. In particular, it addresses your concerns about the G and D shapes being quite hard to play - the basic open position variants are modified slightly to be moveable.

Here's another great series of articles, from "Strung Out":

Archive for 'The CAGED System' Category

[fumblefingers]

You can related the CAGED system to chords, scales and arpeggios. This two part article might help you visualize it:

The CAGED System - Part I
The CAGED System - Part II

You can of course extend this to other scales/modes, and you've already seen it working for the pentatonic scales. Everyone has their own take on CAGED, with slightly altered diagrams and fingerings, but I think this is a nice one. In particular, it addresses your concerns about the G and D shapes being quite hard to play - the basic open position variants are modified slightly to be moveable.

Here's another great series of articles, from "Strung Out":

Archive for 'The CAGED System' Category

Great links, thanks! I believe that the second one (which avoids finger stretches for the major scale) is the more traditional way to finger the scales. The first article - which involves the stretches - seems to be influenced somewhat by Leavitt and/or 3NPS fingerings.

I would start students with the Strung Out version.

[bobby d]

Richard, anything new you do with your fingers takes a while to develop. You'll have those chords down in no time if you work on it a little every day.

[ten left thumbs]

Brilliant! I just tried the strung out first article, and I actually understand it. I found if I use the capo for the impossible barres then I can make it all make sense. I have real trouble visualising, I need to actually do it and hear it.

It seems this is one of those situations you need to go beyond your ability in order to comprehend those tweaks and sophistications that will make it within your ability. Does that make any sense at all?

[richard vandyne]

hi everyone - thank you for the response. i spent the night last night going over th info. you sent and now i have a different slant on caged. i haven,t been looking at the right material. i.ll have to work with it a while to get the hang of it and i hope it will work ok thanks again for the help.

[Distort]

I learned the CAGED system as it related to acoustic blues playing several years ago. It helped open up areas of the fretboard that I was not using in my playing.

a lot of that training helped me move jazz chords around.

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

it all depends on your goal in your playing.

Dave

[brwnhornet59]

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

it all depends on your goal in your playing.

Dave

Our goal here is to play jazz. What is yours? It seems like you have something else in mind.

[Distort]

my goal is to play guitar and have fun.

I enjoy playing all kinds of music, jazz style playing is simply an avenue along the road to my overall enjoyment.

in the words of George Harrison "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there"

Dave

[brwnhornet59]

Well then, Have Fun!

Stop carping about what it takes to play jazz, in your opinion. If you are happy moving 4-5 chord shapes around that is fine. But to dismiss the basic foundations of music, not just jazz, by grumbling that some people think knowing how to build chords is more important than playing a few shapes, is pointless.

Our opinions are just as valid as yours. No one will dismiss yours until you start dismissing theirs, especially as a group. There are things that the group can help you with if you so desire. But if not, please keep things positive.

[fep]

There's a part of CAGED that isn't talked about much, and that's chord construction.

Because I'm lazy, I just put something together with a video

[brwnhornet59]

Great job Frank! Useful, functional information.

[bobby d]

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

Pretty much the same thing. Once you build a chord anywhere on the fretboard it can be moved up, down or both with the exception of some chords with open strings. And it will have a shape. Getting to know the fretboard should be a high priority for Jazz. <looks like Howard Roberts

[fep]

Great job Frank! Useful, functional information.

Thanks

[mr. beaumont]

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

it all depends on your goal in your playing.

Yeah, that'd be me.

And yes--you can move them once you build them.

My goal is to play jazz, pretty much thought that was everybody's goal here.

[Distort]

I'm probably totally wrong again, but here goes;

Let's say that I can play the majority of chords used in the jazz standards in the Real /book in 3-4 positions on the fretboard.

I then play one or two of those tunes that I like at a open mic using those variations during the song...

At the end of the song, I am pleased with my performance, the audience makes pleasing comments afterwards.

That would be a goal that would be considered achieved in my mind.

Is there really a need for me to go further and learn more variations of the chords or learn to build them on the fly on the fretboard?

probably not..

Other folks may have the goal of learning all of that... but it simply isn't mine.


Dave

[brwnhornet59]

Is there really a need for me to go further and learn more variations of the chords or learn to build them on the fly on the fretboard?
Dave

Ummm...That depends on what you want out of it. Besides what you are suggesting as not needing to do, is not just about jazz, it is applicable to all music. Once you know the stuff you do not think of it much anymore. Besides any real learning and experimenting should be done in the practice room. That is where new ideas are formed, and because you practice new ideas it will show in your playing on stage.

After all, all we are talking about here is simple intervallic relationships. If one never sees them in the first place then how does one even really know what they are playing? They don't. What they know are some shapes that seem to work for some reason or other. Now this is fine if you are just playing a tune with a couple of chords, soloing in some parent key that you know works for some reason or other, to get some people to say atta boy to you at an open mic. But in jazz it is not fine, unless you want to sound like a rocker trying very poorly to make an attempt at playing jazz. If that is your goal, then you have arrived.

This is not a matter of right or wrong. This is a matter of are you playing jazz or aren't you. Since this is a jazz forum do not expect any different answers than that. What you are doing is fine as long as you are happy with the results, but it by no means in anyway shape or form represents....jazz. IMHO

[fep]

I'm probably totally wrong again, but here goes;

Let's say that I can play the majority of chords used in the jazz standards in the Real /book in 3-4 positions on the fretboard.

I then play one or two of those tunes that I like at a open mic using those variations during the song...

At the end of the song, I am pleased with my performance, the audience makes pleasing comments afterwards.

That would be a goal that would be considered achieved in my mind.

Is there really a need for me to go further and learn more variations of the chords or learn to build them on the fly on the fretboard?

probably not..

Other folks may have the goal of learning all of that... but it simply isn't mine.


Dave

Nothing wrong with that.

But if you wanted to advance further and be able to come up with smooth, and interesting and creative voice leading while you comp... then knowing all the chord tones and how to build chords is probably necessary. And it could open new doors for your single line soloing also. And chord melody, and harmonization, and writing tunes...

But, if that doesn't interest you, nothing wrong with that either.

I think it's a bit like skiing. One may be perfectly happy on the easier runs, but ski often enough and you'll eventually want to push yourself and try the more advanced runs.

[Distort]

Unless the plan is to pontificate on me about my contrary postings in other topics, NO, we are talking about the CAGED system.

and my response to the OP still stands

"I learned the CAGED system as it related to acoustic blues playing several years ago. It helped open up areas of the fretboard that I was not using in my playing.

a lot of that training helped me move jazz chords around.

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

it all depends on your goal in your playing."


I think Marc Stefani covered things quite nicely in his "Coaches Corner" article in the FEB 2012 issue of Just Jazz Guitar.... Passion & Obsession


Dave

[brwnhornet59]

Unless the plan is to pontificate on me about my contrary postings in other topics, NO, we are talking about the CAGED system.

and my response to the OP still stands

"I learned the CAGED system as it related to acoustic blues playing several years ago. It helped open up areas of the fretboard that I was not using in my playing.

a lot of that training helped me move jazz chords around.

some folks think that knowing how to build a chord anywhere on the fretboard is more important than knowing the chord shapes and being able to move them.

it all depends on your goal in your playing."


I think Marc Stefani covered things quite nicely in his "Coaches Corner" article in the FEB 2012 issue of Just Jazz Guitar.... Passion & Obsession


Dave

Dave, you just won't let this go will you?

Wonderful that learning the caged system helped you move shapes around. Our goal is well beyond that feat.

This is a JAZZ forum. We don't think...we KNOW that knowing how to build chords anywhere is more important than moving shapes around the fret board. Why? Because we are all serious players that do not entertain such thoughts about the basic building blocks of the language that we speak. That is our goal, the playing of Jazz. Please move on to a more productive topic. This one has run it's course.

[Double 07]

My goal is to play jazz, pretty much thought that was everybody's goal here.

Oh wait isn't this the pastry baking forum?

Carry on..