Is it possible to get to a point where visualization isn't necessary?

[jco5055]

Hi guys, let me explain:

First just wanted to say I'm definitely more of a fusion guy and "rock fusion" at that- players like Holdsworth, Brett Garsed, Greg Howe, Derryl Gabel are my favorites so I'm definitely more into rock guys who implement elements/complexities of jazz - just stating that since I'm coming from a little different perspective of I assume most people here who love Wes etc. But I figured this forum probably has the overall most knowledgeable/proficient guitarists short of me being able to pick the brains of Beklee staff etc.

But like most of you I've dabbled in a bunch of different visualization methods, and while I think it does benefit to be exposed to a bunch of them and kinda have your own mashup of how you view the fretboard, the one that's definitely worked best for me has been the Intervallic method that guys like Tom Quayle advocate. Since you don't really memorize shapes except for a general octave shape, I feel like it helps me not just play patterns and also there's less stuff to try to memorize.

But theoretically, let's say someone could transcend even interval shapes and they just know the notes so well as well as theory that anything they'd want to do the fretboard basically lit up almost like all the available notes literally lit up in their mind - and no patterns or shapes at least consciously being used. Is that even theoretically feasible to achieve that level of mastery? I'm talking about where if this theoretical person was asked about fretboard visualization, chord shapes, etc they legitimately wouldn't have an answer because it would almost be like seeing a palate of colors and someone asking how do you visualize all the greens? I kinda suspect that getting to this level of just absolute fretboard + scale/chords/modes etc knowledge to be able to use on the fly improvising at 100% success rate seems like a case of "if you waited to play out until you were at that level it will be 50 years from now" kinda thing?

[Christian Miller]

I mean what you are describing still sounds like visualisation?

So in terms of just looking at the neck and 'seeing' where the notes of A melodic minor, for example, happen to be... TBH I'm not sure. I have no trouble finding those notes all over the neck and I know what they sound like. That said, I think I still tend to visualise scale notes around chords because that’s how they are used in traditional changes based jazz. So I’ll think of the notes of F melodic minor crowding around the inversions of an F minor chord.

I think Allan for example went the other way around - he saw chords as coming from scales

So it’s probably not surprising that I struggle a little bit more is when I'm playing more than one note at a time. So, some sort of intervallic cluster voicing, or a Voice Leading Almanac cycle, etc, in that some times sometimes I make a mistake, and often it seems to overclock the tired old 1980's 16-bit processer that I call a brain. I have practiced this type of stuff A LOT though, so it is getting better. Some things more so than others. Quartals in the melodic and harmonic minor are still not what I call 'natural'. The intervals of those scales are kind of a bit messed up compared to major haha.

But working on things like figured bass and so on has helped me a lot with this because it forces you to map the diatonic intervals on your instrument. So yeah - learn your diatonic intervals. Money in the bank for sure.

One thing that has been a challenge laterly is I've been playing a lot in Middle Eastern maqams, and those scales are not always similar to western ones. I just have to play them more, I guess.

I think one key thing that helps is to stop thinking about fingerings. Practice scales in different ways. Along one sting is a classic - 'unitar' as Mick Goodrick called it. There's Holdsworths 4-notes a string thing. Intervals up and down the neck are good too, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths in the scale going up and down. I like just using one finger and playing all over like I can’t play - gets me out of my cozy fingerings. Find different ways to trip yousrself up and find your weak spots.

Luckily there's only three scales in use in most music - major, melodic minor and harmonic minor. Anything else is just a mode or an application (depending on your proclivity.) So the work is finite. It’s a few years probably, but it’s not a lifetime.

Of course, you have whole tone and diminished but they are symmetrical so easier. Any exotica you want to add to that is cool, but these are the main ones for both jazz and fusion.

Also, speak either interval names and note names out loud as you play the scales. Intervallic mapping is essential of course - and then you can do stuff like alter just one note in the scale and so on. Learning the notes is I think important. People should be able to read. It widens the horizons beyond the guitar and that is very important for jazz generally because the music is often written by non guitarists. (Of ocurse if you have amazing ears you can get away with not doing this.)

And then you have chords, which are coming up the mountain the other route. The more voicings you can work out, the better.

[AllanAllen]

anything they'd want to do the fretboard basically lit up almost like all the available notes literally lit up in their mind - and no patterns or shapes at least consciously being used. Is that even theoretically feasible to achieve that level of mastery? I'm talking about where if this theoretical person was asked about fretboard visualization, chord shapes, etc they legitimately wouldn't have an answer because it would almost be like seeing a palate of colors and someone asking how do you visualize all the greens? I kinda suspect that getting to this level of just absolute fretboard + scale/chords/modes etc knowledge to be able to use on the fly improvising at 100% success rate seems like a case of "if you waited to play out until you were at that level it will be 50 years from now" kinda thing?

You’re literally describing what it’s like to know the notes on the fretboard. You pair that with three arpeggios and how they relate to the major scale. Bing bang boom. You can’t play shit because you never learned any Charlie Parker licks.

Ask me how I know …

[emanresu]

There can be a weird thing happening when you look at the fretboard, look at the next note on it, and kinda "hear" it already.

But to OP, nope. not exactly. I've been doin'g "all by ear" for ages now. When I hear a familiar thing and I know what note I am on with my finger,
I know(physically) and see the triad (or 1st 3rd 7th note) in my mind that my fingers are close to. After a second or two, the rest of the pattern may switch on - the current fingering for that scale.
The fingerboard does not "lit up".

[Tal_175]

I agree with Christian that what you're describing is still fretboard visualization but at a lower resolution than intervallic systems (such as the one Tom Quayle advocates for) or chordal organizations. That's because "all available notes" is a very flat view that only eliminates four notes from the chromatic scale. Whereas the more structured organizations provide a hierarchy of notes consistent with how we hear harmony. When you transcribe good lines, you see that they have a structure beyond the available notes.

I also agree with Allan that once you get to a point where you can access all available notes, you'll quickly realize that you've made very little progress towards playing good lines.

[Mick-7]

Some people are predominately visual learners whereas others are aural learners, the latter are in the minority in our visually oriented society. I am more of an aural learner, can take in and retain information better that I hear rather than see. So for me, musical patterns do not light up but they may "sound up," i.e., I am liable to quickly recognize and play patterns that I hear. Of course I have to know the fingerboard well enough to know where the notes I've heard can be found on it.

What I'm saying is that I have to be able to hear musical phrases (understand them aurally) to be able to integrate them into my playing, visual maps of them will not get me there.

[pauln]

Let music provide a hint;
music is literally invisible.
Then which of sensation
may be most important?

[GBRow]

A part of my practice is about trying to play familiar and simpler songs from visualising fretboard and where the notes and chords are on it while trying to play the tunes in the head.

It is slow and more challenging, but seems a good practice to keep up with.

[ragman1]

What Christian said upthread:

So in terms of just looking at the neck and 'seeing' where the notes of A melodic minor, for example, happen to be... TBH I'm not sure. I have no trouble finding those notes all over the neck and I know what they sound like. That said, I think I still tend to visualise scale notes around chords because that’s how they are used in traditional changes based jazz. So I’ll think of the notes of F melodic minor crowding around the inversions of an F minor chord.

That's where I am too, precisely. One has to have a basic knowledge of chords and what notes they contain. But I never went into it as a sort of study exercise. I learnt by working out tunes because the necessity of learning a tune, chords and melody, was its own exercise.

I think that's the point, really. Do tunes in unaccustomed keys with unaccustomed chords and you learn pretty quickly. I thought OMG when first faced with a tune like Round Midnight which just happens to be in Eb minor. But you sit there and work it out and then you get it. Or modal tunes like Infant Eyes which has all kinds of weird stuff going on and eventually you get it.

Jazz tunes tend to go through several keys. 'All The Things You Are' starts in Ab and goes into 5 more keys - C, Eb, G and E, plus other interesting things as well. So in learning one tune you're already storing knowledge about many other tunes, major and minor. By learning I don't necessarily mean committing them to long-term memory, I mean finding out in depth how to play them while you're doing them. You absorb something of everything you do and that remains.

I don't know if you see the point. That's far, far more valuable than trying to 'learn all the notes on the fretboard'. That just becomes a chore and a bore. Doing things in compartments generally is and then you have the problem of combining them all, which is silly. So I say learn on the job, so to speak. Let the music itself educate you. Doing the tunes also teaches you about the notes and where they are, phrasing, everything. Plus you inevitably learn a lot of theory en route.

And it definitely doesn't take the next 50 years!

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think I'd want to fight it--by nature the guitar is a very visual instrument.

[GuyBoden]

Mapping the fretboard is usually part of most good guitar lessons. This could include; Positions, Caged, 3NPS and other techniques.

But, it's just a basic foundation, to enable you to find and play the notes you will need when playing songs. (IMHO)

Then, after you've been playing for many years, it seems to me that the subconscious mind seems to know what to play better than the conscious mind.

The subconscious mind knows what's best.

[ragman1]

after you've been playing for many years, it seems to me that the subconscious mind seems to know what to play better than the conscious mind.

The subconscious mind knows what's best

Absolutely, that can definitely happen. Which is not surprising if you think of it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think the answer is yes.

You can learn the notes on the fretboard so it's all instantaneouis.

Then, you can learn the notes in the scales and chords you use. 12 keys plus some enharmonic equivalents.

It's a lot of work, but so is every other approach. I chose this approach because I never could get anything out of dots on a fingerboard diagram. So, it may not be for everybody.

If the chord is Cmaj7, I can easily see the chord tones on the fretboard as if they lighted up in red. And I can see the notes of the Cmajor scale as if they lighted up in green.

If the chart says A#m7b5 or some other less common chord, I might get stuck and have to revert to a chord grip based approach. But, I continue to drill it.

If someone wants to try this approach, especially a young person, I'd suggest starting by learning to read, all over the neck. That will get the fingerboard into your mind and, as a bonus, you'll know how to read.

You should know how chords are constructed so you can figure out the notes in any chord -- and then you start memorizing them.

It works. It isn't necessarily the best way to learn how to play fast.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah, I hope my comment wasn't taken as an argument against doing this. It should absolutely be done, but learning from my mistake, learn some licks and tunes while you're doing it.

15 minutes of technical skills to warm up, then 15 minutes of language(learning by ear), 15 minutes of reading. Then a little but putting it all into use playing some tunes and you'll be killing it sooner than most of us.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah, I hope my comment wasn't taken as an argument against doing this. It should absolutely be done, but learning from my mistake, learn some licks and tunes while you're doing it.

15 minutes of technical skills to warm up, then 15 minutes of language(learning by ear), 15 minutes of reading. Then a little but putting it all into use playing some tunes and you'll be killing it sooner than most of us.

Whatever path you choose, there's a great player who did it some other way.

If you can scat sing and figure stuff out from records you're in a very good place to play some jazz guitar -- without needing to learn to read or much else. I say "some" because there are things that jazz players can be called to do which require other abilities, e.g. reading, or soloing over weird chord progressions you've never seen or heard before.

[wolflen]

Mapping the fretboard is usually part of most good guitar lessons. This could include; Positions, Caged, 3NPS and other techniques.

But, it's just a basic foundation, to enable you to find and play the notes you will need when playing songs. (IMHO)

Then, after you've been playing for many years, it seems to me that the subconscious mind seems to know what to play better than the conscious mind.

The subconscious mind knows what's best.

Some refer to this as "being in the zone"..it is not just musicians that experience this awareness..

Any discipline that requires your total attention while you absorb information on a select subject..

It can be physical as well as intellectual..athletes are know to have it at times..

There have been studies on the why/how of this.

Some have tried to get it by various methods..meditation and many other ways to get the conscious mind to be quiet
get out of the way so the sub-conscious can reveal it self..

various names for this outcome..samadhi, satori and others..but these states are temporary and not permanent
and are not obtained by willing them to be.

Then again..it may be something altogether different that happens for reasons unknown as of yet.

[Christian Miller]

TL;DR practice yer scales till you don't have to think about them

[ragman1]

I'm waiting for the OP to come back :-)

[Alter]

For me it has been about learning melodies not notes. You reach a point where you just follow melodies and not think about anything else (when everything works that is ). I think singing internally what i play (which i always do) has helped me a lot on that, also literally singing the solos sometimes.

[pauln]

In my experience new abilities change my understanding and how I play because I no longer utilize the old methods from which the new abilities themselves emerged and arose. In time the new abilities become the old method sources from which even newer abilities result take their place. My descriptions of current process become increasingly abstract and unintelligible because even I don't really know how the conceptual jumps from old to new really happen.

I can describe how I learned; I can not really describe how I play, even to myself.

[jco5055]

I'm waiting for the OP to come back :-)

sorry I'm back, I forgot about this post, luckily i've just been practicing and not spending too much time theorizing on concepts like this post I made lol.

[ragman1]

It's not entirely a concept :-)

[pauln]

jco, do you need to be visualizing when you're singing?