Advice on better use of The Real Book ?

[GBRow]

The Real Book has the songs with melodies and chords. So, I practice the melodies first. But chords seem to be totally ignored. What is better way of using the Real Book? The melodies alone sound too simple and uninteresting. How do the chords get added - I mean where and when? What about turn arounds and adding some embellishments to make them sound interesting? How do you do that?

[mr. beaumont]

1. Play the melody
2. Play the chords
3. Sing the melody and comp for yourself
4. Play the melody and comp for yourself in between the phrases
5. Try a "chord melody" of the tune

It's really limitless...and there's a million ways to do it. I guess to help better I'd need to know what you can do already...

[GBRow]

I can play the melodies in most songs with some practice, and chords too. But I cannot play the melodies and chords at the same time. I can play the chords on the turn arounds when the melodies ends between the chord changes, but it sounded not interesting.

[pamosmusic]

I can play the melodies in most songs with some practice, and chords too. But I cannot play the melodies and chords at the same time. I can play the chords on the turn arounds when the melodies ends between the chord changes, but it sounded not interesting.

There isn’t really a can or can’t on this one. Chord melody is hard but fun and rewarding. Give it a shot.

i second Mr B on the sequence. Shell voicings or a sheet of basic jazz voicings will get you 80% of the way there

[ragman1]

I cannot play the melodies and chords at the same time.

Well, you've got four fingers. One of them can play the melody note and the other three can play the chord. And you don't need a chord under each note.

Joe Pass cheated, he used to play open strings a lot

[JazzPadd]

If possible, get some lessons from an experienced chord melodist, and have them write a couple out for you. My first few chord melodies were learned that way.

The teacher was an old school jazzer, Remo Palmier, and he played his differently every time, but wrote some out for me by hand after taking stock of my capabilities. The songs were ATTYA, I Should Care, and Moonlight in Vermont. When I returned to jazz after a long sojourn through world music, I used those arrangements.

When I ventured into doing my own, I began as already suggested above: Melody expressively, add some shells or chord tones, etc.

The first one I did, Spring Can Really Hang You Up the Most, took six months to get together an initial version, then I played it at open mics, etc. for a couple years to get it flowing smoothly.

The next one I tried, Someone To Watch Over Me, followed a similar pattern but went quicker.

Of course, I’m just a part-time amateur (in Merrifield’s sense, the “joy of doing what you love”) so a more systematic approach would I imagine take less time.

One other thought. Remo taught me songs that he chose from his repertoire to teach me, and the lessons kept me going. The songs I chose for self study were those that spoke to me, with melodies that I really loved, and that love is what kept me going.

All those songs were from the old 5th edition unofficial Real Book, but I suppose any book would do. Talk to your teacher.

Wish you the best on what will surely be a wondrous journey!

[John A.]

The Real Book has the songs with melodies and chords. So, I practice the melodies first. But chords seem to be totally ignored. What is better way of using the Real Book? The melodies alone sound too simple and uninteresting. How do the chords get added - I mean where and when? What about turn arounds and adding some embellishments to make them sound interesting? How do you do that?

How do you do that? I can think of three ways:

1. You listen to recordings and/or watch videos of guitar players playing solo (Joe Pass is the the usual recommendation, because he's great at it) and figure out what they're doing by trial and error.
2. Find charts, books, etc., of solo guitar arrangements and read/play them
3. Take lessons and/or watch instructional videos from a teacher who can show you what to do. Look for videos on youtube by Jake Reichbart and/or Chris Whiteman (Jake also posts here a lot, and Chris used to, so there are some threads here with him that you can search for)

Some combination of these is what we all do. I doubt that anyone has ever really learned how to do this by asking on an internet forum how to play chords and melodies. However, there are many threads here where people demonstrate their chord melody playing and talk about what they're doing, comment on each other's efforts, offer help, etc.

[mr. beaumont]

I can play the melodies in most songs with some practice, and chords too. But I cannot play the melodies and chords at the same time. I can play the chords on the turn arounds when the melodies ends between the chord changes, but it sounded not interesting.

So for me, one of the first steps is to just really focus on making the melody sound good. I don't think there's anything uninteresting about that. Play it like a singer would sing it...

Then, start playing chords here and there. Maybe to highlight certain melody notes, or in the space between the phrases. Keep it simple, space is ok.

[jazzshrink]

Joe Pass cheated, he used to play open strings a lot

You better take that back

[Mick-7]

The Real Book has the songs with melodies and chords. So, I practice the melodies first. But chords seem to be totally ignored. What is better way of using the Real Book? The melodies alone sound too simple and uninteresting. How do the chords get added - I mean where and when? What about turn arounds and adding some embellishments to make them sound interesting? How do you do that?

We've had chord melody study groups here, I could start this one back up if there is interest in it:
Possible Jazz Ballads by Jeff Arnold Study Group - Who's In??

But the simplest approach is just to use a chord that has the appropriate melody note on top, so for example, if the chord is Cm7 and the melody note is Eb, the 3rd of the chord, you might play this: | x-3-5-3-4-x |

If it went to F7, the V7 chord, your melody line might be: | x-3-5-3-4-x | > | x-(3)-(5)-(3)-3-x | > | (1)-x-1-2-1-x | - etc.

You should know the chord tones in the chords you play: bass note, melody note, and inner voices.

[BWV]

Problem with a lot of the fake books is the changes are over-complicated, particularly for solo arrangements. Often there are chord symbols with extensions that are impossible to voice along with the melody line. Its easy to find a more stripped down chord chart online. Its easier to embellish from simple changes than track more complex ones.

[Sigmund451]

What Mick said...consider the chord a general guidline. Find a form of the chord (or use triads or parts of the chord) Then put the melody note on the high string. Most of the time that will voice properly for the melody. Sometimes its tricky, you have to experiment a lot. The nice thing about chord melodies is if you do them half way right they sound good and like the song. Second its your own invention/interpretation of the tune. Everyone will hear and intrepret it differently.

Knowing loads of chords, inversions, and theory is very helpful but even if you dont you can still trudge through. It will be slow but rewarding. After you have done a few and keep working them they will come a bit easier because you build a vocabulary. But its still hard. If it was easy it wouldnt be important.

So fake books are just that...a way to fake it through a tune. That said, they can be a general guide to creating personal and much more complex arrangments. Its a map, not the territory.

[rpjazzguitar]

The Real Book has the songs with melodies and chords. So, I practice the melodies first. But chords seem to be totally ignored. What is better way of using the Real Book? The melodies alone sound too simple and uninteresting. How do the chords get added - I mean where and when? What about turn arounds and adding some embellishments to make them sound interesting? How do you do that?

Sounds like you're talking about chord melody, but just in case you're not ...

1. Use a backing track. IRealPro is in common usage. It will play the chords for you. Arrangements seem to be the same as the RB in most cases IME.

2. Use a looper. Play the chords first and then play melody/solo.

3. If you're really trying to get some chords into your melody playing there are multiple ways to do it. One is the occasional chord stab, often when the melody rests on a note for a moment. Then there's doing that a lot, including playing the melody partly as the top note of the chords. And then, there's full chord melody. Big topic, which others are addressing.

[Jonah]

I can play the melodies in most songs with some practice, and chords too. But I cannot play the melodies and chords at the same time. I can play the chords on the turn arounds when the melodies ends between the chord changes, but it sounded not interesting.

why cannot you play the melody and chords at the same time? What exactly makes it difficult for you?

if possible with particular example from particular song: and possibly also how exactly you play chords. Because in real book is only a symbol and it is placed where this harmony begins: what voicings exactly you use and where you play them?

Then probably it is possible to see where the problem is.

The answers above are all valid but I have the feeling the forum members make certain assumptions about where you are now with your skills and maybe the problem can be at a much more basic level.

[Sigmund451]

Good point. A chord melody is really a mix of melody and then chords. The chords add texture and fullness and the melody carries itself. How you mix them is personal. Listen to a bunch of chord melodies and a lightbulb may come on.

Some guys do a mix of finger picking and pick, some just fingers. Some of them may have more going on than you can do at one time. Here on the forum there are some intro lessons that will give you easy chords, music and tab to start getting an idea of what you can do.

[alltunes]

I have the PDFs of the real books so I print out an actual piece of paper of a song I’m working on and I’ll take a pencil and I’ll mark out the thirds and seventh of each chord.

The root is obvious; no need to pencil that in. Play through the melody while trying to add one or two maybe three notes (root third, seventh) below the melody. The supporting notes can be at the same time as the melody or gaps in the melody or maybe the first beat of a measure. It is up to you and what a great way to spend some time. The concept is really that simple.


Let the master Bill Frisell explain (about 3:00)

[Rodney Gene]

Joe Pass cheated, he used to play open strings a lot

Thank goodness for that! There is a verbose and hyper over-analyzation in the world of Jazz that is common.

Joe reflects the 'lets just play some music' school of chill. Maybe it was his lack of interest in theory, but he never seems to overthink anything. I always got the impression he was 'take the fundamental idea and play the tune', if it is working it is working and you'll know it, all theory aside. His playing shows a level of feel and relaxation that reflects that for me. Experience counts for alot. I suppose sometimes the hyper theoretical helps gain some of that experience but when it is substituted for actual playing and listening, its time to recenter.

[BWV]

But theory is a crutch for those of us who ain’t Joe Pass

[GBRow]

We've had chord melody study groups here, I could start this one back up if there is interest in it:
Possible Jazz Ballads by Jeff Arnold Study Group - Who's In??

But the simplest approach is just to use a chord that has the appropriate melody note on top, so for example, if the chord is Cm7 and the melody note is Eb, the 3rd of the chord, you might play this: | x-3-5-3-4-x |

If it went to F7, the V7 chord, your melody line might be: | x-3-5-3-4-x | > | x-(3)-(5)-(3)-3-x | > | (1)-x-1-2-1-x | - etc.

You should know the chord tones in the chords you play: bass note, melody note, and inner voices.

That book looks like for more advanced players. I will need more practice to get to the level. But yes, I know what you mean. It looks like I need to learn more on the harmonic melodies from the melody itself. For that maybe I need to learn how to make up harmonic notes using the intervals between the notes?

And your method described sounds will do the trick. I will need more practice and studies.

[mr. beaumont]

Depends on what you call theory. Joe knew his instrument inside and out...it took him a lot of work to get to the point of being laid back and just playing.

[GBRow]

I have the PDFs of the real books so I print out an actual piece of paper of a song I’m working on and I’ll take a pencil and I’ll mark out the thirds and seventh of each chord.

The root is obvious; no need to pencil that in. Play through the melody while trying to add one or two maybe three notes (root third, seventh) below the melody. The supporting notes can be at the same time as the melody or gaps in the melody or maybe the first beat of a measure. It is up to you and what a great way to spend some time. The concept is really that simple.


Let the master Bill Frisell explain (about 3:00)

That sounds like excellent approach too. Will keep that in mind, and give tries.

[GBRow]

In the interviews and instruction videos, Joe Pass sounds like he takes everything simple and easy with no much thought or efforts, but he plays like the master and with relaxed manner too.

[mr. beaumont]

Joe was very smart about things, practical...which came from years and years of practice. He gets taken out of context a lot...there's a famous quote where he says "Don't play anything difficult."

Which of course seems wild because if you sit down and try to do what Joe was doing, it sure as hell is difficult.

But what Joe was saying was to avoid things like the difficult chord shape that has only one application, avoid over working out arrangements, etc-- don't set yourself up for situations in which if something goes wrong, it's a disaster.

[Rodney Gene]

Joe was very smart about things, practical...which came from years and years of practice. He gets taken out of context a lot...there's a famous quote where he says "Don't play anything difficult."

Which of course seems wild because if you sit down and try to do what Joe was doing, it sure as hell is difficult.

But what Joe was saying was to avoid things like the difficult chord shape that has only one application, avoid over working out arrangements, etc-- don't set yourself up for situations in which if something goes wrong, it's a disaster.

It's a good point. The context is the most relevant.

For me his entire way of playing is relaxed with a natural way of saying 'hey man good to see you, lets play some music and see what happens'...

Experience aside, I have noticed some long time, well traveled, road experienced players who go deeper into theory as they age. I have observed it is as more of a personality thing myself and I tend to appreciate that as long as they can stay relatable. Not all do. Benson, a true favorite of mine, a student of primarily experience (with schooled players) versus formal education. It shows when he teaches and I dig it.

I think balance is useful, but if someone is hyper analytical, perhaps hyper verbose teachers are what they relate to. Whatever keeps you moving forward!

[Mick-7]

Joe was very smart about things, practical...which came from years and years of practice. He gets taken out of context a lot...there's a famous quote where he says "Don't play anything difficult."

I attended a couple of his workshops, and what he meant by "difficult" were uncommon, hard to finger chord voicings (the sort of chords that Ted Greenes Chord Chemistry book is full of). He did a little slapstick routine in which he contorted his hand in weird ways to play a musical passage, and then he played a similar passage in his normal way to show that there are easier ways to play just about anything. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.