Playing by guessing/intuition without score/tab book

[GBRow]

I was playing Greensleeves and Autumn Leaves just by my own intuition stumbling on the fretboard guessing the notes. I made many mistakes in trying to get the right note, but I got about 70% right notes in these songs. When I kept on practicing that way, I got better in getting the right notes. I think I have the scorebook for these songs somewhere, but because I knew the melodies for them in my mind, I just kept on playing it by guess.

Now does this type of playing or practice any use or help for improving guitar playing? Or is it better / best to read the score book, and play the guitar while reading the notes on the sheets?

[Mick-7]

Now does this type of playing or practice any use or help for improving guitar playing?

Do you mean just the melody or the chords too? (both is best).

Yes, attempting to play tunes by ear is an effective way to develop your musical hearing and ability to improvise, so it would be good to include it in your practice routine.

[GBRow]

Do you mean just the melody or the chords too? (both is best).

Right now, I just play the melodies, and some turnover improvisations with the notes.
But I couldn't play the chords with the melodies for the reason, I didn't know which chords to use for the melodies and which part of the melodies the chords should be played. It would be nicer if chords and melodies can be played together. But I am trying to get the melodies right first, and try working with the chords with the melodies later.

I recall reading some topics about playing melodies in the chords, but still not sure what is the right way to do it.

[Mick-7]

Well the melody is a good place to start, then you could try harmonizing the melody notes with major and minor triads and go from there.

[ragman1]

Now does this type of playing or practice any use or help for improving guitar playing?

No, it's bloody disastrous. You'll be playing wrong stuff without even knowing it and falling into bad habits without knowing that either.

Or is it better / best to read the score book, and play the guitar while reading the notes on the sheets?

What do you think?

[ragman1]

Besides, why do you think those two options are the only ones?

You need to play the notes slowly and carefully from the score till you have them perfect. Or take them by ear from a good recording. Then learn to play them, which includes the fingering, without any other reference. This way the tune is set in your memory, i.e. you have it fully internalised.

That's when the real thing begins. Then you can begin to play it with some feeling and interpretation, not just by rote like a machine. After that you can begin to introduce some embellishment and turn it into real music. A backing track helps because you then have something to play against.

There's nothing worse than someone who wants to show you their latest tune and stumbles round it getting the notes wrong. They obviously haven't bothered to learn it properly and can't be bothered to do that even for an audience. Just saying.

[Mick-7]

It's just an ear training exercise, rm, not felonious melodious assault.

[GBRow]

I didn't mean that playing by ear would be the only method for practicing. But when the song is familiar or known by heart from listening to it many times, the practice could be done, because it is possible to follow along the notes played by listening to it from intuition and guessing at some occasions. - would this type of practice also be helpful at all? - That was the question.

When the song is totally unknown or unfamiliar that method would be impossible to try, and player has to rely on the score book of course.

The idea flashed into my mind when we hear the famous guitar virtuosos like Jimmi Hendrix, Tommi Immanuel cannot read music at all, but they play like guitar God.

[James W]

I think there is definitely a place in one's schedule and routine for just playing intuitively. Same with sticking on a song or backing track with which one is unfamiliar and just trying to use your ears to play something. It can be lots of fun.

Of course for real life performance you'll want to be more prepared than that. But - this reminds me of one of the beautiful paradoxes of free jazz or free improvisation, where generally lots of preparation is required to play music that is studiously unprepared. The preparation is more general than that required to learn tunes that have a pre-existent structure, more one of general musicianship.

I really enjoy just playing whatever on the guitar. It can help to practice changing scales in particular intervals like up/down chromatically, in whole tones, minor thirds etc. Learning to freely transpose melodies is an important concept whether you're playing over chords or not.

[Gitterbug]

This is coming from someone who took classical guitar lessons in the early '60s but quit because building model airplanes was more rewarding than struggling with sheet music. As a teen, he learned basic chord shapes and became the comping guitarist in a rock band. After getting the girl, he quit playing and became an aeromodeling champion instead. Plus majored in macroeconomics at the university, got a decent job and stayed away from band playing for over 30 years. He was then invited to join his high school buddy's swing outfit. Blah, dad's music! A few lessons and jazz camps later he nevertheless filled the role. Basic comping ok, solos so-and-so, but no melody playing. No exotic jazz block chords. No walking bass. No chord-melody. Gradually, his solos, still played around chords, got better. Now, at 80 next birthday, he's finally practicing melodies and bass lines, as somebody in his old boys' band is always hospitalized. No scales or modes - the chord progression and the ear say where to go.

In other words, a hopeless amateur. For a 50€ gig every two months, what else do you expect to get?

[StormyMonday]

For playing with others it's important to get the reading part down, whereas if you're playing solo I think it's good to develop your ear as much as possible. I try to start with ears and consult my fake books if I get to a part that I can't quite get. As you play more you may want to reharmonize songs and although you can of course do this from a starting point of theory there's nothing wrong with playing what sounds good to your ears (if you're playing unaccompanied).

[John A.]

I think that if you know a melody from having it heard and/or sung it it's good to figure it out by trial and error on the guitar. That's a normal part of developing your ear and your familiarity with the instrument. The next step is to actually figure out fingerings and where on the neck to play it so that you can do it at tempo without making mistakes, and then to memorize that solution to the point that you can play it whenever you want without having to hunt and peck for notes. TBH, I learn more melodies that way than by reading them from a chart, and I think that's pretty common for jazz players in general and guitarists specifically.

To tell you that you shouldn't do this and only learn tunes from charts strikes me as bad advice, though I do think it is a good idea to compare what you've figured out by ear to a chart (and to recordings) to make sure you have it right. The downside of learning by ear is that if you learn it wrong it's difficult to replace the mistakes in your mind/memory with the correct melody.

[GBRow]

The downside of learning by year is that if you learn it wrong it's difficult to replace the mistakes in your mind/memory with the correct melody.

Good point. Yes, I am aware of the possibility. That's why I will still keep the score books, and keep going back to them for checking out while practicing by ear.
At the end of the day, we all practice and strive for the day when we can play with no scorebooks in front us anyway.

I am quite surprised to read some of the very negative replies to the OP question.

[ragman1]

I am quite surprised to read some of the very negative replies to the OP question.

I'm afraid it depends on your point of view. If you mean my posts then I regard them as cutting to the chase and 100% positive. Sorry if you find me blunt but your OP and the thread title gave the impression of someone sitting in their room trying to resurrect the right notes of a melody like Autumn Leaves by memory. And when that fails, rather than google it (very easy) or getting out their 'scorebooks' (did you mean fakebooks?), just ploughing ahead by guesswork and hoping for the best.

So I said immediately that was asking for disaster because how would you know if your guesses were correct? As I said, if you knew the tune by heart (your words) no guesswork would be required. Jazz tunes are generally complex. You'll notice, if you listen to pro versions, that whereas the tune can be only hinted at in some cases (Miles Davis was very good at that) they never actually get it wrong per se.

So the right notes are a necessity. As I also said somewhere, there's nothing that screams amateur more loudly than playing the head wrong just to get to their wonderfully impressive improvisations. There's an example on the forum currently of someone doing just that. Obviously getting the head right wasn't a priority and it shows, loudly.

After that, though, then a player can begin to interpret and embellish what they play because they've established a solid basis for it.

I said all this, and so did others here, and now you've come to that point yourself apparently. Yes, I think you should get out your scorebooks, or follow carefully some pro recordings, and get the job done correctly!

If you regard all that as 'negative' there's nothing much to say. Entirely up to you.

By the way, 'ear training' has nothing to do with trying to guess at half-remembered tunes, it's something quite different.

What Is Ear Training? Complete Guide for Musicians

[ragman1]

I do like this. Not a note out of place :-)

[jads57]

A very well known guitarist here in the Twin Cities chided me for using the real book in a gig, some years ago.
He said you need to use your ears and learn melodies instead.

I get why he said that to me back then. But sometimes you need some training wheels if you are unfamiliar with the song. I guess you can say in most Jazz standards there an only so many race tracks to be on. And most fall into one of those progressions.

Until you can reach that point I suggest definitely using a basic chart. But be aware reharmonization is common in all of these progressions. So familiarize yourself with many versions of the song from different time periods as well!

[GBRow]

A very well known guitarist here in the Twin Cities chided me for using the real book in a gig, some years ago.
He said you need to use your ears and learn melodies instead.

I get why he said that to me back then. But sometimes you need some training wheels if you are unfamiliar with the song. I guess you can say in most Jazz standards there an only so many race tracks to be on. And most fall into one of those progressions.

Until you can reach that point I suggest definitely using a basic chart. But be aware reharmonization is common in all of these progressions. So familiarize yourself with many versions of the song from different time periods as well!

Good advice. Yes, I have now tons of guitar and jazz books, so plenty to study them through time. The OP does not say that I will only noodle away guitar by ear with no books.

I will be using the books and score / tablature books in my practice. But sometimes I just try to play the melodies of familiar tunes with guessing and intuition. It sort of works, and when I keep doing that, the tune becomes natural to me to play, and I can play so fast or slow whatever I want to. I was wondering if this type of practice could be also help for improving guitar playing.

Because at the end of the day, if you are really good, you want to be able to play any songs or tunes, following along the music play, be it in the band on the stage, or with the recording replaying. I have never seen a pro musician flicking and staring at score books on the stage so he could read the music he is trying to play, or saying well I cannot play that because I don't have scorebook for the song you are requesting.

Today, I played along some Led Zeppelin songs with no score or chord sheet in front of me totally by ear, and it sorta worked. I seem to be able to fret the chords and notes following along the original song playing from Youtube. I also played along Tommy Emmanuel's American Tune and Waltzing Matilda by ear the same way, and it wasn't 100% but it wasn't too bad sounding. I am going to keep practicing like this always because it is also fun. I was just wondering how other folks feel about it.

I am also practicing using A Modern Method for Guitar Book 1-2-3, which is mostly reading the notes and playing guitar, which I find OK to get along with.

[Litterick]

I am quite surprised to read some of the very negative replies to the OP question.

Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

[RLetson]

I would think that one benefit of picking out familiar melodies by ear, without looking at a score, might be that it gets you familiar with the fretboard--where the notes fall, what the patterns are (especially when the melody crosses that pesky third-to-second string border). It certainly would be more engaging, musically, than running scales up and down the neck, which would serve a similar purpose.

Seems to me that having a feel for where the notes are (with or without being able to name them) is a skill distinct from (however related to) being able to read them from notation. And while it might be useful to be able to locate every (insert particular note here) on the fretboard, I've been playing for more than sixty years and still can't do it. (Like most folk-based players, I do know the notes on the E strings.)

I realize that conventional, structured training aims at integrating reading, ear training, and fretboard knowledge, but that doesn't mean that there are not other, probably less efficient and systematic, ways of exploring the guitar. (Or the piano, I would think.)

[jameslovestal]

I recommend one starts with fairly simple songs that they grew up with. E.g. If I Only Had a Brain. Doing this helped me "hear" the intervals between the notes as well as the pattern of the melody on the fretboard. Do that for one song until one has it down with no mistakes.

Then take another familiar song. Keep doing that until one can take a new melody and do it correctly the first time (well with only a few mistakes).

As for chords, I use lead-sheets since it saves time. But 30 years ago, I should have started to use the triad method since without a lead-sheet I can't hear what chords I should play.

I was playing with my pianist friend (who was trained as a classical pianist) and started playing the melody to Downtown. He asked if I had the music. I said no, I'm playing single-line melody by ear. He tried and couldn't do that. He googled the song and then played it.

The point being there are different ways to approach learning and playing music. Of course, it is best to have all methods down, but for jazz I have found improving one's ear is more essential than one's ability to site read.

[GBRow]

Great posts. Yes, I agree.

[paulkogut]

I'm working with the assumption that we're all looking to be improvising jazz musicians...

If our ultimate goal is to 'play what we hear', I think a solid intermediate step is to be able to 'play what we've heard'. Meaning, if we hope to create original melodies in the moment, we should be able to pick out the notes of things we've heard before (Happy Birthday, Christmas carols, Beatles tunes, etc) I'd encourage anyone to try to pick out basic melodies at random points on the fretboard . It may feel slow at first, but it's a skill that can really be developed!

Of course, going for it and trying to get a melody out in the moment is different from learning and performing a piece correctly from a score...

Best wishes fro everyone's music!


PK

[ccroft]

...
Now does this type of playing or practice any use or help for improving guitar playing? Or is it better / best to read the score book, and play the guitar while reading the notes on the sheets?

I think this type of playing is invaluable. Reading is also invaluable. You should do both. Plus anything else you can think of. You need it all. Definitely not either or. That's trouble for sure.

You know that classic old thing where guys trade fours and riff on what the other guy played? How do you get there without getting your ears and intuition connected to the fretboard?

Another good thing to do, which is related, is to play along with 'records'. With and without the lead sheets.

Also, it's good to have fun. We don't call it playing for nothing.

[GBRow]

I am working with a few Jazz books right now. The ones like best are,

The Complete Jazz Guitar Method by Jody Fisher - Great great book.
A Modern Method For Guitar Vol.123 by William Leavitt
Jazz Guitar Method by Ronny Lee
Mickey Baker's Complete Course Jazz Guitar Book 1&2
jazz theory by Dariusz Terefenko

This video on Youtube was helpful, and the last point the presenter is making is relevant to the OP. I subscribe and watch a few Jazz Learning channels on YT, and they are great resource for learning jazz must admit.

[Gitterbug]

If you playing is a bit off, you can always refer to Lutoslawski's "aleatory kontrapunkt"