Cannot play song I don't know

[GBRow]

Would it be true to say that I cannot play a song or tune with guitar without knowing the song first or at least intimately familiar with it?
Even if I could read sheet music, it would be a bit of limping along trying to play new song with not knowing it. But with newbie level of sheet music reading, it wouldn't be possible to play it.
Would it be right statement?

Or if one were a very good improvisor with scales and chord progressions, once can follow along the song even if one never heard of it before?

[AllanAllen]

I can get through a song by reading a chart. But I enjoy it more if I know the song.

Sometimes on a gig you’ll get a request and the other guys know it.

Here’s an example of me playing days of wine and roses for the first time ever, on a gig last year.

Dropbox - 409

I got through it, and if I took 1 chorus of a solo it would have been better. Actually after hearing this I decided to cut my solos down.


Side note, I can tell by my comping I had just heard these Lester Young live recordings.

[RLetson]

If by "play" you mean "play the head or take a solo that's recognizably appropriate to the tune," then I suspect most here would find that a serious challenge. (Accomplished sight readers are out there, but it's a genuinely rare skill.)

But if the goal is to play along and not get underfoot and even comp a bit, then it's not impossible even for a player of modest skill and experience. Because I spent several pretty happy years sitting in with a jazz group, dependent on my ears and a good set of fakebook charts (I don't read notation). They played a lot of jazzified standards, but also lots of bop and post-bop jazz compositions that I was at best marginally familiar with. But the nice thing about a lot of that repertory is that it's built on recognizable harmonic structures (mygod, how much bop is blues or rhythm changes), and if I had a decent chart and didn't have to wrangle strange keys, I could make at least a modest contribution to the rhythm section. Worst case, I'd be getting it by the last chorus.

On the other hand, call a standard that I'm thoroughly familiar with hearing, but at a high tempo, and it's as though I didn't know the tune at all--because my chops are not up to it. A frequent nightmare was "Surrey with the Fringe on Top," which I can sing at normal tempo but not execute the changes at high speed. (If I'd been more assiduous, I would have practiced those two-chords-to-the-bar changes in the bridge--I can hear them in my head right now, but my fingers need to be walked through them.)

[rpjazzguitar]

There are situations, like big band playing, for example, where it's commonplace to have to sight read a chart you've never seen for a tune you've never heard.

There are players who can sit out for the first chorus of a tune and then play it correctly on the second chorus, no matter what the harmony is. That's a very high skill level.

[Mick-7]

Would it be true to say that I cannot play a song or tune with guitar without knowing the song first or at least intimately familiar with it?
Even if I could read sheet music, it would be a bit of limping along trying to play new song with not knowing it. But with newbie level of sheet music reading, it wouldn't be possible to play it. Would it be right statement?

No, top-notch studio musicians do that every day, i.e., play songs they've never heard or played before, and experienced sight readers could get close enough. And there are people who can play a tune fairly well after hearing it only once. Such abilities are possible, but certainly not common.

[rpjazzguitar]

To break this down a little further.

It can depend on the level of detail in the chart. At one extreme, you might get a lead sheet without a tempo marking or an indication of the rhythmic feel. Arguably, that might be a badly written chart, but there are good reasons not to get into that with your bandmates. My impression is that it's wise to stay away from politics, religion and chart details.

So, you see the melody and the changes. Maybe there's a discussion about tempo or feel. Maybe somebody plays an mp3 on their phone. Or maybe, someone counts it off and you wing it. The key there is to play something that isn't likely to make mud while you listen to the bass, drums and keys for a few beats. If there's a piano, laying out for a bit may not be a terrible idea.

Or, the chart might actually tell you exactly what to play. Then, your challenge is reading it accurately, or close, and to make it sound good. I have heard a well known drummer interrupt a seemingly endless lecture by a pianist by saying "Let's just play it and make it sound good".

If there's no chart and suddenly everybody else seems to know the tune, well, that's when having a volume pedal can be very helpful. Smile, dig into your comping and go heel down on the pedal. While you're silent, see if you can figure out the changes. There's a good chance you might find a chord chart on Irealpro, so that's worth trying. If you can't play anything, still get the name of the tune and figure out how to play it for next time.

Keep working on ear training. Transcribing and transposing can each be helpful.

[Skip Ellis]

Happens all the time in theater work - songs you never heard with musicians you never worked with and it has to be perfect to match computer controlled light cues. Last show I did, IIRC was about 70 pages - the band walked through it one evening, went through it with the vocalists the next evening, then did tech and lighting the next day, then opened the following night to a standing ovation (and every night thereafter). That's why reading is so important.

[pamosmusic]

Would it be true to say that I cannot play a song or tune with guitar without knowing the song first or at least intimately familiar with it?
Even if I could read sheet music, it would be a bit of limping along trying to play new song with not knowing it. But with newbie level of sheet music reading, it wouldn't be possible to play it.
Would it be right statement?

Or if one were a very good improvisor with scales and chord progressions, once can follow along the song even if one never heard of it before?

Im not sure I follow this question.

If you’d don’t read well and don’t know the song, I’d imagine that’s kind of it right?

You can read music or learn the tune by ear, but without those two, you’re out of luck, I would imagine

[John A.]

Assuming we’re talking about GASB tunes with typical forms and nothing too weird going on with the changes (and no chart or iReal at hand) in a jam session or similar context …

I can often solo over a tune completely cold (assuming I’ve heard the band play the head once through), and sometimes comp (might take me more than one chorus to pick up the changes well enough for that).

If I’ve heard the tune reasonably frequently but never actively tried to learn it I might be able fake it through the melody.

With a chart, I’m a lousy reader and can only sightread really simple melodies, but I usually have no trouble comping and soloing from chord symbols. I do this all the time.

I don’t think these are particularly advanced or rare skills. I think that for a relative beginner intending to play with other people it’s a reasonable benchmark to shoot for.

All that said, I’m talking about getting through a tune without sounding lost. It’s not the same as really knowing a tune and being able to play it with some freedom and creativity.

[AllanAllen]

All that said, I’m talking about getting through a tune without sounding lost. It’s not the same as really knowing a tune and being able to play it with some freedom and creativity.

I think this is what OP’s question was about.

[dharma2020]

Sight reading can be practiced. You just take a random tune out of the real book and open a backing track and then you comp to it with shell voicings.
That should be the most straightforward way to do it.

[Aiq]

As part of my ongoing struggle with reading I try to get something off the page first but will go to a recording eventually.

Would not/could not go cold in front of people.

At my advanced age I see it as prep and have made peace with it.

Wish I had listened to Mr. Machen about reading back in ‘67 when my brain was elastic but all I wanted was to play Rolling Stones songs…split milk, mustn’t cry over it.

[AllanAllen]

Sight reading can be practiced. You just take a random tune out of the real book and open a backing track and then you comp to it with shell voicings.
That should be the most straightforward way to do it.

I agree, but would suggest comping to actual jazz recordings instead of a backing track.

Ellington tunes are generally in the same key as the RB.

[John A.]

Sight reading can be practiced. You just take a random tune out of the real book and open a backing track and then you comp to it with shell voicings.
That should be the most straightforward way to do it.

I don’t think of following chord symbols in a chart as sight reading. To me, sight reading means reading notation in real time.

I find comping from symbols easy. I’ve always found reading notation (especially rhythmically complicated melody lines) difficult, and not for lack or trying and practicing. I think this is pretty common with guitarists, even ones who read well on other instruments.

[ragman1]

Cannot play song I don't know

Can't argue with that :-)

[kris]

Would it be true to say that I cannot play a song or tune with guitar without knowing the song first or at least intimately familiar with it?
Even if I could read sheet music, it would be a bit of limping along trying to play new song with not knowing it. But with newbie level of sheet music reading, it wouldn't be possible to play it.
Would it be right statement?

Or if one were a very good improvisor with scales and chord progressions, once can follow along the song even if one never heard of it before?

Surely it is much easier for a jazz musician with a lot of practice... Often the harmonic structure of the songs is repeated and this can be used.
Nevertheless, there are songs that have a complicated melodic structure and require practice (often for many years) - there are so-called technical barriers.
A long time ago I had a jazz gig in a hotel. I had Real Book in front of me and I played standards with the band that I had never played before.
You can deal with it - it"s not difficult as the melody is not complicated and the tempos are moderate.
There are thousands of these jazz songs/standards.

[Bob_Ross]

There are players who can sit out for the first chorus of a tune and then play it correctly on the second chorus, no matter what the harmony is. That's a very high skill level.

When I was a wee undergrad at Berklee a million years ago there was an alto sax player in my class who was legally blind. Couldn't sight read for shit, because he couldn't see for shit. But he had an incredible ear: He'd take his 4-page Alto 1 big band chart over to the MD and say "Can you please play through this from top to bottom?" ...and after hearing it once he would nail it. Every note, perfect. Plus he could solo like a mofo.

Wish I could remember his name...