Could there be 1 tune that teaches you 90% of all jazz?

[ragman1]

Bernstein didn't suggest it because it's got lots of 2-5's and all that, he suggested it because it's not so easy as it looks. I can guarantee it. There's something about it which is... difficult.

[pamosmusic]

Bernstein didn't suggest it because it's got lots of 2-5's and all that, he suggested it because it's not so easy as it looks. I can guarantee it. There's something about it which is... difficult.

What are you talking about?

[ragman1]

I'm talking about sheer experience. I trust myself. I know I can grab a progression or tune and sort out what it needs to play it and sound right, or at least quite good enough.

But with this one it didn't work. I wondered what B was talking about, got the sheet, put down the backing, no prob, and sight-read the melody. Then realised that the melody at certain points wasn't quite hitting the spot. Like that F# over A7 in bar 12. Or whether the F7 in bar 6 should be Cm7/F7 or even just Cm6, and so on.

So I thought okay, just find the usual subs, etc, and play it through. And it didn't work. It should have worked but it didn't. And that went on for several attempts, and not for lack of trying. I tried several different chord sheets.

So my usual tricks weren't working, even if I changed them. So then I gave up, read the chart and just played exactly what it said, chord for chord. That worked.

Like I say, this doesn't normally happen. It's just a standard, it's got a tune and some chords, no big deal, but it somehow defied every attempt to play decent solos over it. A strange thing, trust me.

That's what I'm talking about. Then the question is: did Bernstein experience the same thing, which is why he thought about it when asked the question he was asked?

Another thought occurred to me about the posters here. Has anyone else experienced this or is it all talk as usual? You said it's one of your favorite tunes. Do you just get into it and blow through it, no prob? I'd be interested, honestly. And I'd be interested to hear you play it. Not to try to catch you out or prove some point, I wouldn't, but just to see.

Anyway, I eventually settled on this. Probably not your style but it kind of works, only just. Finally.

[pingu]

in terms of chord melody
in G

bars 9 and 10
are giving me trouble

I’ve got
bar 9
x77787 (hammer the G to A , ok fine)

now the issue I have ….
bar 10
x9 10 9 12 x
x 9 8 9 8 x (hammer the G to A)
———————-
bar 11 Bm xx 7777 etc (fine)

got anything better for bar 10 ?
————————
————————
update I just found
9x9987
x9898x

I’m happy now
sorry to bother y’all

[pamosmusic]

That's what I'm talking about. Then the question is: did Bernstein experience the same thing, which is why he thought about it when asked the question he was asked?

I would say that Bernstein wouldn’t consider a cursory sight read of a tune like this “knowing” it at all.

Another thought occurred to me about the posters here. Has anyone else experienced this or is it all talk as usual? You said it's one of your favorite tunes. Do you just get into it and blow through it, no prob? I'd be interested, honestly. And I'd be interested to hear you play it. Not to try to catch you out or prove some point, I wouldn't, but just to see.

Not sure why you always need to assume that everyone here is blowing smoke or whatever.

Also not sure why at this point I need to prove to you that I know the tune. One of my favorites. I even know Quasimodo, though I wouldn’t blame you if you wanted proof on that one.

[AdroitMage]

It would have to be a standard, with cadences, and a blues at the same time. Wouldn't it?

[ragman1]

I would say that Bernstein wouldn’t consider a cursory sight read of a tune like this “knowing” it at all.

Of course he wouldn't. I just said I read the head. It's easy, slow, in G, etc. But that's not all I did, as I said clearly. Anyway, the head was never the point, it was trying to make the solos work with the chords.

Not sure why you always need to assume that everyone here is blowing smoke or whatever.

I didn't say blowing smoke. It's just there's a lot more talk than music, that's all. That's true, isn't it?

Also not sure why at this point I need to prove to you that I know the tune.

Uh? I am genuinely interested to see what you do with it, and that's what I said. I'm not trying to get you to prove something!

[ragman1]

got anything better for bar 10 ?

Ah, you might have caught me with your update but...

The chords and notes for bar 9 are either

C#m7b5 (B-G) - F#7 (A - G) or

Em6 - F#7 (the C#m7b5 is an Em6 with the C# 6th in the bass)

But it looks like your chord x9 10 9 12 x is more like an F#7b5 (which I have seen in some versions).

--------------------------

Chord melody isn't really my thing but playing with it as a C#m7b5 can be done: x10-11-9-12x. That gives you the B at the top and the G would have to be played separately.

Playing it as an Em6 gives x7x687. The B and G are right there in the chord.

The F#7 is x989 with the A and G played on that. Like an F#7#9 - F#7b9 to your Bm xx7777. You don't have to play the F#7b9, of course, just the G note will do, it's a lot easier.

I also thought of tritone-ing it and using C13 (8xx8910-8) which sounds quite nice.

Does that help?

[pamosmusic]

Of course he wouldn't. I just said I read the head. It's easy, slow, in G, etc. But that's not all I did, as I said clearly. Anyway, the head was never the point, it was trying to make the solos work with the chords.

Im just saying what you described as having learned the tune isn’t really what I would consider learning a tune. More like a cursory look at the tune.

I didn't say blowing smoke. It's just there's a lot more talk than music, that's all. That's true, isn't it?

You asked if it was “all talk” which implies that people are speaking about something they don’t have experience with. Gets a bit tired.

[ragman1]

Im just saying what you described as having learned the tune isn’t really what I would consider learning a tune. More like a cursory look at the tune.

You asked if it was “all talk” which implies that people are speaking about something they don’t have experience with. Gets a bit tired.

I can't really help you. Those are your interpretations, not what I actually said.

I never said anything about having learned the tune instantly after one go. If only! On the contrary, I repeatedly said I'd tried it many ways. And never used the word learned.

I also never said that anyone talking a lot wouldn't be experienced either. Most of them are quite obviously experienced otherwise they'd have nothing to say, would they? I just think talk and chat has greatly overtaken playing actual music, that's all. Well, I know it has! But, you know, each to their own.

[oldane]

Could there be 1 tune that teaches you 90% of all jazz?

Define jazz.

Old lady: "Mr. Waller, please tell me, what is jazz?"

Fats Waller: "Mam, If you ain't got it by now, you never will."

[ragman1]

Just to put my money where my mouth is...

[pingu]

thanks Rag

yes
x10 11 9 12 x is nice

I also just realised it’s here on
top four strings as well
xx5657

[ragman1]

yes
x10 11 9 12 x is nice

I also just realised it’s here on
top four strings as well
xx5657

Yes, quite easy to play as well, the G can be stuck in with the pinky while the chord is still sounding. Probably better than the other one!

[AllanAllen]

A few months ago I just read through the big band chart and played what was there. Seemed easier than 2 years ago when I tried to learn it the first time.

Practiced it a dozen times and then read it at a gig and moved on.

[ragman1]

Practiced it a dozen times and then read it at a gig and moved on.

That's an interesting point. When we do a tune here there's lots of time to worry over it, dissect it, and so on. With the possibility of seeing lots of pitfalls and all that.

Whereas if one has a gig to do then you're talking multiple songs and one hasn't the time to get too immersed in just one. So we settle on working versions, do them and move on, like you said. Absolutely.

[AllanAllen]

That's an interesting point. When we do a tune here there's lots of time to worry over it, dissect it, and so on. With the possibility of seeing lots of pitfalls and all that.

Whereas if one has a gig to do then you're talking multiple songs and one hasn't the time to get too immersed in just one. So we settle on working versions, do them and move on, like you said. Absolutely.

Having the big band gig is really nice. I have no say in the repertoire, or key, and I get exposed to new stuff. There’s no time for the romanticized Peter Bernstein level of “knowing a tune.” You don’t need to be able to play a tune in all 12 keys blindfolded and know which melody notes relate to which scale and chord tones of all the chords to play it at a gig. It’s just not that important.

[pamosmusic]

Ah, to be young again.

[AllanAllen]

Ah, to be young again.

Pretty sure I’m older than you?

I would accept “to be ignorant and naive again” I’m pretty sure I am that.

[pamosmusic]

Pretty sure I’m older than you?

I would accept “to be ignorant and naive again” I’m pretty sure I am that.

Po tay to Po tah to

[AllanAllen]

Po tay to Po tah to

I guess it should also be said that I know I'm not great and have room to improve. The point I'm always trying to make is you can't learn everything in your bedroom, then emerge a fully formed jazz musician.

At least, that's what I think.

[pamosmusic]

I guess it should also be said that I know I'm not great and have room to improve. The point I'm always trying to make is you can't learn everything in your bedroom, then emerge a fully formed jazz musician.

At least, that's what I think.

Of course, but not quite the point you made.

The “romanticized Peter Bernstein” level of knowing a tune, etc etc.

For what it’s worth, I think folks would probably do better with the opposite perspective. Tunes are deep, and you never stop learning from them. So you can’t wait until you’re “done” learning them to take them out and play them. You take them out and play them, and then keep going back to the well.

The danger of treating deep knowledge of the tunes as not that important is that you’re inclined to think you’re done with the tune once you make it through it on the gig.

I had a lesson once where the guy told me “if you want to play this music, you have to love this music.” And this was a pretty modern, outside dude, and he said it in reference to me using an incorrect real book chord on It Could Happen to You.

[AllanAllen]

Of course, but not quite the point you made.

The “romanticized Peter Bernstein” level of knowing a tune, etc etc.

For what it’s worth, I think folks would probably do better with the opposite perspective. Tunes are deep, and you never stop learning from them. So you can’t wait until you’re “done” learning them to take them out and play them. You take them out and play them, and then keep going back to the well.

The danger of treating deep knowledge of the tunes as not that important is that you’re inclined to think you’re done with the tune once you make it through it on the gig.

I had a lesson once where the guy told me “if you want to play this music, you have to love this music.” And this was a pretty modern, outside dude, and he said it in reference to me using an incorrect real book chord on It Could Happen to You.

Yeah, that's a better way to say it.

I get the impression here that some guys aren't going out to play with anyone because they don't have complete mastery of everything. For some reason I really want to inspire them to put themselves out there.

[mr. beaumont]

I think the job of a jazz musician is kind of a balancing act...you definitely need to spend time going deep with tunes...but it's that process actually prepares you for playing tunes you don't know well, which is something that happens! You gotta be able to do both, unless you plan on always being the leader.

[RLetson]

Rereading through this thread, an old non-music remark floated into the Magic 8-Ball window: Comedy isn't about saying funny things, it's about saying things funny.* So maybe jazz isn't about playing jazzy tunes, it's about playing tunes jazzy. Which maybe means observing what "jazz players" (term to be unpicked on another occasion) do with the various tunes they play jazzily. So it looks to me like accounting for all the "jazz" performances that have ever been might require more than one or two exemplars. I mean, "Some Day My Prince Will Come," "My Favorite Things," and "Days of Wine and Roses" have all been jazzified**. . . .

* And a few minutes later the Magic 8-Ball remarked, "It ain't the meat, it's the motion." Maybe it's time to get it recalibrated.

** Which might be another way of saying that "jazz" is less a repertory than a body of practice that is applied to a repertory--some items of which get more attention than others. I will now try to deactivate those old classroom circuits, which are probably way out of spec.