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Here's an article on this very subject. It's a fun read.
The Most Common Complaint From Older Musicians - Jazz Guitar Today
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01-31-2024 12:36 PM
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Well written. Fareed's a wise man.
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This list of innovators is a bunch of people so old they're all dead. Which is ironic, innovation is literally dead in his example.
Almost all of the great music that we celebrate – from Palestrina, Bach, Stravinsky Debussy Bartok Schoenberg, to Mingus, Monk, ‘Trane, Charlie Parker, Tristano, Zappa, Holdsworth, and beyond is in some way rejecting tradition and embracing architecture, form and innovation.
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Bartok did field research, Mingus deeply interested in folk blues, Monk had a background of accompanying a preacher, Bird was busking blues as a kid, Trane played with Cleanhead Vinson ...
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You're saying these pure musicians actually had roots? For shame!
Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Maybe I read in too far but that's what I got out of the article...that there's not really a dichotomy...
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Am I going out on a limb to say pure music is more an accusation than an artistic process? Oi Bach you did pure music. 'Ach, I thought I was writing a French suite.'
That said he did kind of go out of his way to make his music jolly complicated.
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Yeah, I was having a goof with Bop Head. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I think he's saying there is a dichotomy, but that it's not old vs young; it's "innovative" vs "roots". He is specifically saying that people on the "innovative/pure" end of spectrum mistakenly dismiss roots music (especially blues) as too easy to be worthwhile. They thereby miss its sophistication of execution and fail to learn the lessons it offers for the art of performing jazz. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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George Benson not only heard but also played with BB King.
B.B. King 1978 Bottom Line NYC WNEW FM : WNEW : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
EDIT: Link corrected
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Was fully prepared to roll my eyes at this until I saw it was Fareed Haque.
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He writes, Originally Posted by John A.
Don’t forget that history is the greatest teacher and you’ll find that the greatest innovators have always understood the roots of their music. So don’t think understanding your roots as losing your innovative spirit and don’t fight innovation in order to be a rootsy musician.
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I just read the article. It's funny that the bit you quote undermines the already very specious premise of the article, that music exists in two forms - 'roots' and 'pure' music. I'm unsurprised to discover it contains zero evidence that there are people around ('younger guitarists') who need to have it explained to them that they need to know about the tradition within which they're working (i.e. their roots). Originally Posted by Litterick
I'd also like to hear him explain to me how Palestrina rejected tradition.
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True - in my choir days- we always thought of Palestrina as the vanilla option. Victoria if you wanted some messy fun. Originally Posted by James W
For the real out-there c16 stuff of course there’s Gesualdo a little later…
Anyway douchebag quibbles aside, I’m also not sure if I buy this dichotomy. Sounds like something a jazz musician would come up with.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 01-31-2024 at 07:01 PM.
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ahhh...Nice site... Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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Most young musicians do look down on blues as something below them. That's a fact I established by how many pick up guys were unable or unwilling to stick a blues gig. Hitting a blues jam for a few songs and an all nighter playing blues are quite different things. Due to the nature of a lot of gigs now i.e low volume, many of the drummers lacked an audible back beat and couldn't be coaxed to drive the music by any means. Then, thanks to everyone-gets-a-gold-star teaching methods you also have a whole slew of guys with no meter.....
Pointers shared by peers are not generally respected the way demands handed down by bandleaders and professors are respected. Novelty seems to be more of a core ingredient in the young musical mind than roots. The endless admixture of music. Abandon the blues roots of jazz and you don't have a genre left. Maybe that's why so much music sucks now.
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A word-guy quibble: "roots" and "pure" are not opposing terms. I think I know what Haque is getting at, but the tension he's describing is more like "traditional" and "paradigm-stretching" (or -breaking). Or, from a different angle, music that emphasizes continuity or discontinuity with regard to previous conventions and expectations. (Or music that deliberately mixes modes/expectation-sets, or that deliberately violates conventions.)
None of these strike me as polar opposites with absolute end-points, but rather as directions along a variety of axes that might describe what's going on in a body of work.
I'd better stop before I start reconstructing my old intro-to-lit notes on how to talk about a poem.
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Get my guy's name out of your mouth, Miller. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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The trouble with younger guitarists
The trouble with the young is that they're young, which is not their fault. And the trouble with the older people is that they're always complaining about something or other. Quite often the young people :-)
And that's all that article said about that. The rest of it, which was most of it, I glazed over.
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Or Lassus' Prophetiae Sibyllarum... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Quite. Yet he is writing for a publication called Jazz Guitar Today. Originally Posted by James W
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Victoria’s better and you know it! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Admitted I havnt had time to read the article - yet. In a jazz guitar context how old is a younger guitarist actually?
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Authors who can't write coherently kind of peeve me.
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