what is a bad solo?

[Spook410]

Hmm.. many in this forum live around communities where it's a question of a decent musician caught up in a bad solo. Gonna happen sometime so you had better be good to your muse.

Around here it's more like, "what's that G thingy your a doin' over there?" or the more traditional (since Blues Brothers anyway) "That ain't no Hank Williams". Count your blessings. Bad jazz solos in non-urban America are wrought with heavy hammers and rough steel.

[emanresu]

Play all the things that you wouldn't play to make a good solo? But some listeners might like that. Going against the grain, avant-garde, etc. So the bad solo becomes a good solo. So, if you can't play a good solo to be a bad solo, and you can't play a bad solo to be a bad solo, don't play anything. But if you don't play anything, there's nothing to judge whether it was good or bad. The conclusion therefore must be there isn't such a thing as a bad solo, just perceptions of what it might be, which differ from listener to listener. Two Belgian beers and one vodka will lead you to similar conclusions.

It is kinda solo too so, that hits your points:

[emanresu]

A bad solo sounds like you usually and never play.
It sounds too close than you play or doesn't sound the way you want it to sound.
It depends of who is listening.
Blindfold auditions are the best for that.
You see a name of someone you like, it's good, someone you dislike, it's bad.

The best thing is to record something, something bad, you let the people listen and comment.
Then you've got two possibilities.

The same recording
- Some will hate it more
- Some will say it's better than the other one

Another recording
- Some will say they already listened to it
- Some will say it's great without listening

A bad solo ? Bad listeners for sure.

[emanresu]

It may be obvious to the expert, but it is worse with the casual listener.

IMHO truly, the casual listeners know best. The more casual the better.

[emanresu]

A bass solo.

A group of tourists in a jungle.... (keeping it short) enjoy the distant drumming. After a while it gets annoying and ask the tour guide "when does it stop, it's annoying". The tour guide says "The drum solo must never stop... if it stops, the bass solo begins"

[emanresu]

I should have been more clear: I don't think the two solos I noted are "bad" solos. I just don't like the long section of a single figure repeated. Yes, I hear what the band is doing, and yes I hear the rhythmic displacement. But for me, those sections are not musically appealing. They not only don't speak to me, they actually make me think about hitting the "next track" button. And honestly, do you guys really think that in a given session, these guys didn't momentarily have gaps in the flow of their ideas? I know it would be rare, but seriously. They are not gods, they are not perfect, and in the live moment I would not hold it against them if they filled some space while they loaded up some more ideas.

I am grateful wintermoon's response was simply disagreement, even strong disagreement. Some of the responses reminded me of the medieval inquisition and its charges of heresy and blasphemy.

I saw that Martino's Sunny solo when I had no clue what jazz is at all. Had only one question while this happened "when does he stop?" and he bypassed all my expectations. So it was interesting to me.
Later I just figured that this thing doesn't really happen in jazz much. It's a um.. gimmick? But since no one really does it in jazz that boldly(used a lot in rock and pop), this worked. In that case. Worked very well.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

While we're at it, there is one solo that absolutely drives me crazy with delight every time I hear it. Wes Montgomery on "Smokin at the half Note" playing "Impressions" and (GASP!!) there are a long repeated sections, though he does something really fun with them. He does surprising variations. He plays with them. You can hear the musicians laughing and talking to each other through the track. I consider this track, and the whole album actually, one of the high-water marks in jazz guitar.

this is one of those solos that makes me want to sell all my guitars and just quit.

Oh yeah, a famous tune for him. Unit 7 was also a highlight there. His ballad playing, just all of it.

[Gilpy]

Listening back to recordings of gigs, I sometimes hear myself playing "bad" solos. No wrong notes, lots of technique, some cool ideas.
But I was playing too much to amuse myself, not for the song or the audience.

[Gabor]

w/all due respect to my friend Lawson, I've NEVER heard Pat Martino run out of ideas, not even for a second,
he's a wellspring of improvisational ideas. every once in awhile I find myself using that device, maybe because it's subconsciously part of my vocabulary at this point. I never think about it but I'm sure I got it from Pat/Grant Green

also with respect, I could not agree less. It is true he never runs out... of notes. But he is the ideal example of repetitiveness, and also extreme rythmic monotonity, which is interesting to idolize in jazz. He is not repetitive regarding melodies, because in the 95% of his recordings he does not play melodies in his solos.

He masters the lick system he invented, to reuse the same patterns over variety of different chords and also masters to inject a set of variations into it so the combinations are huge.

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I'm going to come and get you for disparaging Pat.

[Gabor]

^ I'm going to come and get you for disparaging Pat.

ok, I understand, no one likes such a posts, especially if Pat Martino is his solo hero. However given this forum, which is a real unique in the last two decades of history of online communities, and literally the goldmine of thoughts... (I hear you, saying, well, not Gabor's). Anyway, it would not make sense to categorize thoughts in an analytic topic like this, by "respectful" vs "disrespectful" about well known artists.

If anyone seeks what makes a solo great, then taking Pat's routine as an example could be a misguide, so I replied to that statement according this.