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i kind of feel Wayne Shorter has been avoiding playing any language for the last 50 years.
Originally Posted by kris
Sometimes someone thinks that he is playing jazz and this is not jazz ...
The "language of jazz" makes it easier to determine whether we are dealing with jazz.
The "language of jazz" is essential.
what is a jazz language?
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06-25-2022 07:29 AM
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Is it jazz?
Should we care?
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This is a jazz guitar forum, so it is of more than passing interest.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Hi, C,
As a Jazz artist, Shorter checks all the boxes for me despite the fact that I have never liked his later music(Weather Report) or subsequent wandering improvisations. What we're talking about here is the Jazz mindset which is different for all of us. No one would accuse Shorter of formulaic playing/improvisation. He is a consummate artist and follows his own pathway. However, if I had an hour to listen to music, he wouldn't be on my playlist . . . but, his earlier music with Art Blakey and Miles is a different case. So, for clarity, we're not talking about the different genres of Jazz but rather the approach to Jazz improvisation by the individual musician and how he/she expresses their creative energy: as a byproduct of their hard work and creative talents or as a pre-conceived math equation and, it is the latter than defines, for me, much of what people call Modern Jazz today.
Marinero
P.S Despite prodigious effort, the Will alone cannot produce a Jazz musician(sorry Schopenhauer!). This is a myth perpetuated by hopeful devotees rather than creative practitioners of this Black Art. M
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We can't be sure they are improvising. They might have worked it all out before the gig.
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Wayne Shorter is a great jazz player...and great jazz composer...I think so. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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of course ... what are jazz festivals for? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Min 1:02. That's in answer to the OP's question. You know it when you hear it? Some of the other genres played here would definitely lend themselves to the kind of phrasing and embellishment we associate with jazz, so then we would call it Hip Hop-Jazz, for example. Maybe I'm stupid, but it seems pretty simple.
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yeah, Wayne is as jazz as it gets (yes I do think Weather Report is jazz, pace Barry Harris) but he doesn’t really ever do the ‘language’ thing. He obviously knew all of that stuff as some of his early solos attest. Originally Posted by kris
Wayne Shorter is a great jazz player...and great jazz composer...I think so.
Language is like a phase for some people, they develop out of it.
But did Ornette ever have it to start with?
And so you end up having these conversations about players like Krantz of whoever where you say ‘definitely not playing ‘jazz’, but I like it’ (or something) and they say ‘yes bet he can play all the bebop’ and I think ‘who cares? Let’s enjoy the musician for the music they are playing now, I don’t need them certified by the jazz police.
While I don’t really care that much about jazz per se - music is the thing… jazz is the nearest thing to a tradition I have as a player.
that said I do think jazz players have a distinct approach. Krantz’s approach to music is not the same as any post-rock guitar player. Something to do with the communal aspect of the the improv, as much as been on Jimmy’s case haha. It’s a social organisation aspect that I find interesting.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-25-2022 at 01:49 PM.
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"yeah, but he doesn’t really ever do the ‘language’ thing. He obviously knew all of that stuff as some of his early solos attest.
Language is like a phase for some people, they develop out of it." Christian Miller
Hi, C,
What do you mean when you say the "language" thing? Language in re:? Could you explain?
Marinero
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In jazz circles often refers to bop language. As in ‘that player has so much language.’ You’d have to ask Kris as to what he meant, but that’s how I understood it. Originally Posted by Marinero
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good one! Made me chuckle. Originally Posted by kris
of course ... what are jazz festivals for?
jazz festival definition of jazz is Brass bands playing Beyoncé?
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Yes-bop language can be treated as a starting point. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Nowadays it is very complicated ... maybe the musicians don't even want to be associated with the so-called 'jazz".
For ex.:Joe Zawinul had an interesting way of evolution.
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I've been listening to a lot of 1960's jazz lately. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
It was then that brilliant bands that recorded albums and played at festivals .
Today you can only dream ...
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Jazz is a competition.
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With oneself. Originally Posted by Litterick
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With one's peers. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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There is a lot of truth in this. Originally Posted by Litterick
But it's a fun contest - it's not boring but very exciting.
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I prefer to compete with myself. If I hear good stuff that others do, I'd rather be glad for them, take note, and think I should be able to do that and try to up my playing.
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It’s funny when one person is competition with the other and the other is both completely unaware and squishes them like a bug. I’ve seen it many times. I’ve been the former for sure….
Competition is silly really, but that’s not to say it doesn’t happen all the time and musicians aren’t massively in denial because they know it’s not cool haha
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What if Herbie Hancock suddenly appeared at the jam session and you were on the stage at that time? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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i would know better than to compete with Herbie I think even when I was 21…. But maybe more contemporaries who are much better than me who I feel in competition with who barely know I exist haha Originally Posted by kris
What if Herbie Hancock suddenly appeared at the jam session and you were on the stage at that time?
Happened all the time
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Mick Goodrick wrote something like this in "the advancing guitarist" (I don't remenber exactly but...not far from this) :
"if you are in competition with someone, you better keep it in your mind"
not bad !
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it is not about sports competition.. Originally Posted by itsmyname
Mick Goodrick wrote something like this in "the advancing guitarist" (I don't remenber exactly but...not far from this) :
"if you are in competition with someone, you better keep it in your mind"
not bad !
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