Modern Music's Death By Auto-Tune

**Marinero** · 06-23-2021, 09:16 AM

"I don't wanna hear any of that practice room shit in your solo - tell me a story, tell me what you had for dinner." DavidKos

Hi, D,
Excellent previous post! And, there lies the rub . . . So, my biggest criticism with almost all young players is that they have great chops but no personal voice. The practice rigueur in 99.9% of college Jazz Programs is to study the solos of the greats and be able to play them at tempo. I've heard, for example, many versions of Oliver Nelson's Big Band chart of "Night Train" ,1967, where the college/university band's soloist copies Mel Brown's guitar solo note for note. I've heard countless Trane/Bird/Dexter solos note for note by young players at a gig. What are they teaching "Jazz" students other than being trained parakeets? How then is this different from reading a score in Classical Music?
When I was in my early 20's as a Saxer, I was very fortunate to have studied improvisation(???) ,briefly, with Chicago's great Jazz pianist Willie Pickens at the Chicago Musical Conservatory--now Roosevelt College. When I went to the first session, he asked me to play whatever I liked and I played the ballad "Over the Rainbow" with him accompanying. He didn't say anything after I finished playing, positive or negative, and he asked me what my goals were in music. I told him I was a current performer in a Jazz/Rock Big Band and that I wanted, eventually, to have my own quartet and play straight ahead Jazz. He said, "O.K., next week I want you to write out a solo and play it as written. Pay attention to the changes." The next week, we met, and I played my written solo. Again, we didn't really talk about the music and he asked me how I felt about my solo. I said it was "O.K." but nothing really special. I then asked him if he had any suggestions or advice and he said "I've taught you everything you need to know about Jazz?" he said with a toothy smile. "Why waste your money?" I was very perplexed and disappointed and felt that he was not interested in teaching me and left ,for home, very upset. However, after reflection, what Willie was really saying in a very direct and honest way was that after a certain level of competence(and I was a very advanced technician), you need to work on your own ideas and develop your own voice and he gave me his secret formula and I've followed his advice for a lifetime of playing. I later confirmed his noble intention with me several weeks later at one of his gigs at the Jazz Showcase where he was the house pianist for awhile. Willie was a gentleman and a great Jazz musician and the lesson he taught me has stayed with me in both my Jazz and Classical playing.
So, the bottom line is: find your own voice. You won't find it in someone else's solos.
Play live . . . Marinero

**DavidKOS** · 06-23-2021, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Marinero

However, after reflection, what Willie was really saying in a very direct and honest way was that after a certain level of competence(and I was a very advanced technician), you need to work on your own ideas and develop your own voice and he gave me his secret formula and I've followed his advice for a lifetime of playing. I later confirmed his noble intention with me several weeks later at one of his gigs at the Jazz Showcase where he was the house pianist for awhile. Willie was a gentleman and a great Jazz musician and the lesson he taught me has stayed with me in both my Jazz and Classical playing.
So, the bottom line is: find your own voice. You won't find it in someone else's solos.

Thanks for the post - I appreciate the comment about "need to work on your own ideas and develop your own voice".

**citizenk74** · 06-23-2021, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Well, we're outpopulated by you Boomers, and the Gen Y/Millenials.

And, we're also not quite as vocal. Probably because so many of us Xers grew up during crappy economic times (the Recessions of 1982 & 1990/91, and the Stagflation 70s), so (at least for me), we're possibly a little on the cynical side, because we have tendency to not think everything is all sunshine and roses.

Ellen - Early Gen Xer (born in 1963 to parents who were only kids during WW2).

My GenX children are pretty level-headed and we love them dearly. Some of their hoodlum friends, not so much.

**citizenk74** · 06-23-2021, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

I remember Ultravox, though from what I remember, they were bigger darlings on MTV, than the radio.

As for the Cold War - well, I grew up in a town 80 miles (130 km) north of MIlwaukee. Less than 20 miles (32 km) north of where I lived there wasn't 1, but 2 nuclear power plants (Point Beach, and Kewaunee). They may or may not have been 1st Strike targets, but they were at least 2nd Strike targets for the missiles. I was figured that it would probably be Game Over for me if WW3 broke out, due to at the very least, all of the radiation those 2 nuke plants would spew out after being hit by missiles.

Our children grew up in a town that was home to a specialty steel plant that made steel used in turbine blades for jets and nuclear submarines. It was a given that it was first-strike material. In fact I named one of my bands "First Strike." People kept asking about baseball, but they were pretty much lit when they did so.

**Stevebol** · 06-23-2021, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

My GenX children are pretty level-headed and we love them dearly. Some of their hoodlum friends, not so much.

Those of us who didn't want kids are clueless much of the time. Your kids have gangster friends.
I can only imagine.

**Marcel_A** · 06-23-2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

Our children grew up in a town that was home to a specialty steel plant that made steel used in turbine blades for jets and nuclear submarines. It was a given that it was first-strike material.

You think so?
Let me picture this: after the US was bombed with nukes and everything was pretty much obliterated the US navy sails home and orders a few turbines for their subs?

You guys make the cold war sound hot. It never really was. Maybe a bit during the cuba crisis, but even then nobody wanted a war. The cold war was about retorics.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-23-2021, 03:36 PM

As a tail end X-er, I can say one thing with certainty: Russia was the coolest enemy the U.S. ever had.

**citizenk74** · 06-23-2021, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Marcel_A

You think so?
Let me picture this: after the US was bombed with nukes and everything was pretty much obliterated the US navy sails home and orders a few turbines for their subs?

You guys make the cold war sound hot. It never really was. Maybe a bit during the cuba crisis, but even then nobody wanted a war. The cold war was about retorics.

You are misinformed, Sir.

Cold War

**citizenk74** · 06-23-2021, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stevebol

Those of us who didn't want kids are clueless much of the time. Your kids have gangster friends.
I can only imagine.

Not gangsters, per se. They lacked orginization, thank goodness. Just your basic Feckless White Punks on Dope.*

Although... one of my son's pals did time for swiping an ATV, and then more time for setting his cell-mate on fire.**

** In self defense, apparently.

***

*** To the best of my knowledge, an upstanding citizen today. Just goes to show you.

**Peter C** · 06-23-2021, 08:15 PM

If you get a zoom link via wassap tell'em to knock it off and use Google Duo.

**Marcel_A** · 06-24-2021, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

You are misinformed, Sir.

Cold War

No i am not.

**Gabor** · 06-24-2021, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Marcel_A

You guys make the cold war sound hot. It never really was. Maybe a bit during the cuba crisis, but even then nobody wanted a war. The cold war was about retorics.

oh, I did not know it was so simple, Obviously you disregard the nature of a a) totalitarian dictatorship, b) the flaws of democratic systems and its politics c) the human psychology regarding the mass hysteric behaviour, d) the human psychology regarding personality flaws, especially in a totalitarian government. You also disregard the damage in life quality degradation of hundreds of million people because of anxiety over their heads. You also ignore mccarthysm, which is a shame of democracy, and caused damage on the society.

It was not about retorics. It was about millions of human life significantly hurted, both sides, so it was hot indeed.

**Litterick** · 06-24-2021, 05:03 AM

Many wars in the third world were extensions of superpower rivalry.

Many states sacrificed healthcare and education to support their armed forces.

Many nuclear weapons are still ready to be used.

**Marcel_A** · 06-24-2021, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gabor

oh, I did not know it was so simple, Obviously you disregard the nature of a a) totalitarian dictatorship, b) the flaws of democratic systems and its politics c) the human psychology regarding the mass hysteric behaviour, d) the human psychology regarding personality flaws, especially in a totalitarian government. You also disregard the damage in life quality degradation of hundreds of million people because of anxiety over their heads. You also ignore mccarthysm, which is a shame of democracy, and caused damage on the society.

It was not about retorics. It was about millions of human life significantly hurted, both sides, so it was hot indeed.

I never stated that retorics are harmless. They are not. Nor people being delusional. I disregard nothing. I believe i know more about the topic than most.
The cold war was never a war. It was a misunderstanding that lead to an arms-race. The arms-race itself was mostly a misunderstanding. Nor the USA nor the Soviets had any intention to declare war to one another. Not at any time. The entire cold war and its armsrace was insprired by the false notion that if the other striked first, the other should be able to strike back. And if no-one has any intention to strike first . . . . ?

**Marinero** · 06-24-2021, 09:47 AM

"The entire cold war and its armsrace was insprired by the false notion that if the other striked first, the other should be able to strike back. And if no-one has any intention to strike first . . . . ?" Marcel

Wow, M,
You've said a lot in two sentences! So, 1.) Yes, the Cold War was an arms race; 2.)There was no " false notion" about striking back since both Russia and the US had the ability to destroy the planet with their nuclear stockpiles before the race began. So, the event was, initially, more about "chest pounding" than real necessity; 3.)However, how does one determine "chest pounding" vs real threat when things heat up and one party becomes irrational? Have you ever had a verbal disagreement as a kid/adult that ended in a fist fight? It was an event du jour in my neighborhood in Chicago.
There are some enlightened souls among the Science community that believe the world will not survive the century. As Desmond Morris said, Man is the Killer Ape. He has not changed in temperament since he left the trees in East Africa and plodded onto the savannah trading his diet of roots, nuts, and fruit for protein high meat. I also agree.
Play live . . . without "Auto Tune" . . . Marinero

**DavidKOS** · 06-25-2021, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

Which means they have plenty of personal voice, but it doesn't adhere to your boomer esthetic, which pisses you off and therefore you shit on all players of today ... Am I right?

Not as far as I am concerned...I highly respect the young players' chops, dedication, study habits, and all of that. What I have been commenting on is the seeming sameness in sound, style and concept so many music school jazzers have due to the use of the same teaching methods and materials.

I'm certain many of the younger players do have a unique voice - I'd like to hear more of them as they develop a sound of their own.

What does NOT adhere to my boomer esthetic is rap music. I still am not a big fan, apologies to all rap and hip-hop musicians.