Benny Goodman - Corny? or Hip?

[neatomic]

^ hard to beat stanwyck!!! her pre-code stuff!!

one of the greats!! krupa is icing

cheers

[rpjazzguitar]

Inspired by the "Corn" thread, I was picking up a vibe from some that a lot of Swing music is corny. I myself used to think Benny Goodman was as nerdy and as square as they come. But after many years of listening to Charlie Christian, you begin to appreciate how hip a lot of Benny's lines actually are, well, at least I think so...

What about you guys? Anyone with me? Kinda makes you contemplate what constitutes "hip". If you put a gun to the head of many modern "hip" players, could they play those cool, slippery, supple, language soaked yet still unpredictable lines that make you tap your foot, smile as well as make you go "Wow!"... Hmmm, for ages now we're supposed to think that "modern" means more hip. But for me, I'm not feeling that at all... I mean, sure Chris Potter makes me go Wow, but not the kind of "Fuck Yeah" kind of Wow I get from the top cats from the 40's, 50's and 60's. Heck, even Louis Armstrong to me sounds more "hip" than many if not most, if not all, of the current guys.

So yeah, back to Benny and the other Sultans of Swing from the bygone era, forget some of the cheesy tunes and the arrangements, try transcribing those solos and you'll come to realise you could never have come up with ways to get from one chord to another like they did. Beautiful, perfectly shaped story telling steeped in the old language tradition (Benny, Lester, Andre Ekyan, Don Byas etc etc ) that makes much of the modern post Coltrane / Shorter pattern or CST based soloing kinda dull in comparison, and, dare I say, kinda unhip ... Well, to me at least anyway... Strange how I've gradually come to this realisation, especially considering I once considered any kind of Jazz from the 70's was way cooler than every decade that preceded it put together!

I moved to the SF Bay Area in 72. The SF Chronicle was the big newspaper and everybody read it. The most popular columnist was Herb Caen, a candidate for Mr. San Fransciso.

He would write occasionally about his love affair with the Benny Goodman bands of the late 30's. And this was in the mid 70's. He was born in 1916, so he was writing about music he heard live around age 23. Iirc, he would rate the different editions of the band, by year, and talk about which edition was the best. How many bands/leaders do fans talk that way about?

It made quite an impression on him. To hear him tell it, the groove was the deepest he ever heard and the music was the hippest, to his way of thinking.

Not everybody uses the audience response as a measure of "hipness". If they did, Kenny G might get better press in the jazz community. But, my impression is that it was profound at the time and represented a sea change from the music just 10 years before.

[2bornot2bop]

Benny G. and his sidemen were consummate musicians. And, unlike later "Jazz," he played dance music to a generation of listeners/dancers. To compare him to later styles/musicians is an apple/orange discussion. These musicians laid the foundation for all forms of Jazz to evolve to what we have today. And, as a side-note, IMO, Jazz lost its popularity when people could no longer dance to the music. It became cerebral, not visceral. Can you imagine dancing to "Giant Steps?????"
Play live! . . . Marinero

But who danced to jazz in the 60’s? Even hippies tripping on acid knew to sit their ass down. The music evolved then, and has never stopped evolving. There’s no stopping evolution. If you’re trying to take a snapshot of time I’ve no argument with that. But the music is alive and its evolution was for the better if you ask me. It’s unfair to jazz to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. The music was never made to be music of the masses. Besides rock and roll happened. You’re going to stop R and R too?

Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.

[Marinero]

With regards to what is corny: The 1941 film Ball of Fire has a scene where corny is defined. I couldn't find that scene but I did find this opening scene from the film with Gene Kuppa.

Krupa. . . related by marriage. Play live! . . . Marinero

[Phil59]

What is hip?
This is hip!

Yes, it is! How do you define hip? You don''t. You know it when you hear/see it. Similar to Supreme Court Justice William Douglas about pornograpphy: "I know it when I see it."

[Phil59]

But who danced to jazz in the 60’s? Even hippies tripping on acid knew to sit their ass down. The music evolved then, and has never stopped evolving. There’s no stopping evolution. If you’re trying to take a snapshot of time I’ve no argument with that. But the music is alive and its evolution was for the better if you ask me. It’s unfair to jazz to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. The music was never made to be music of the masses. Besides rock and roll happened. You’re going to stop R and R too?

Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.

I agree, music, like life, evolves. Whether it is automatically for better is dubious, I think. History says otherwise. You say it's unfair to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. It's not unfair, it happened. Because, as you say, music evolves. The-post-dance jazz era was fabulous for a while--50s, 60s. Then the decline began and accelerated. Music evolves, for better or worse.

[neatomic]

But who danced to jazz in the 60’s? Even hippies tripping on acid knew to sit their ass down. The music evolved then, and has never stopped evolving. There’s no stopping evolution. If you’re trying to take a snapshot of time I’ve no argument with that. But the music is alive and its evolution was for the better if you ask me. It’s unfair to jazz to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. The music was never made to be music of the masses. Besides rock and roll happened. You’re going to stop R and R too?

Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.

goin deep 2b...nice

cheers

[sgosnell]

Evolution != improvement. Evolution is just change, for better or for worse. That applies to biology, music, and innumerable other things.

[wintermoon]

Oh I dunno, people regularly dance on our gigs.....well, danced.

[lawson-stone]

But who danced to jazz in the 60’s? Even hippies tripping on acid knew to sit their ass down. The music evolved then, and has never stopped evolving. There’s no stopping evolution. If you’re trying to take a snapshot of time I’ve no argument with that. But the music is alive and its evolution was for the better if you ask me. It’s unfair to jazz to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. The music was never made to be music of the masses. Besides rock and roll happened. You’re going to stop R and R too?

Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.

I agree except for the caveat that not all evolution leads to a species' success. There are mutations that end-stop certain life-forms that become extinct. In biological evolution adaptive mutations are "rewarded" by reproductive success, maladaptive mutations lead to extinction.

Music is not exactly the same, of course, because humans have memory, an instinct to preserve that which is endangered, and a desire to change without loss. Still, evolution is neither good nor bad, it just is.

[princeplanet]

...... evolution is neither good nor bad, it just is.

True. De-evolution, on the other hand...

[ragman1]

I think Benny was probably quite hip at the time. Maybe a bit old-fashioned for that now.

[christianm77]

I don't think Benny was ever hip. Hipper than Glenn Miller perhaps. (no diss intended.)

But - he did serve an incredibly important function culturally, which was running one of the first integrated bands and presenting black talent - such as Charlie (and Teddy, Lionel and so on) - to a white audience.

There is a general feeling in the histories (I don't know how accurate they are, but this seems to be the vibe) that the music of Minton's playhouse was away from that commercial setting a chance for those musicians to really play... So that was the real hip thing and became bop a few years down the line... But I still find the Benny small band sides to be fresh sounding and compelling. I think you have to give Benny some credit for that.

[christianm77]

But who danced to jazz in the 60’s? Even hippies tripping on acid knew to sit their ass down. The music evolved then, and has never stopped evolving. There’s no stopping evolution. If you’re trying to take a snapshot of time I’ve no argument with that. But the music is alive and its evolution was for the better if you ask me. It’s unfair to jazz to say jazz lost its audience when they stopped creating dance music. The music was never made to be music of the masses. Besides rock and roll happened. You’re going to stop R and R too?

Who can imagine life without bebop and all of the players it later produced? Or the birth of the cool, or the great Miles Davis Quintets, and on and on and on.

Haha, Barry Harris said once - 'the worst thing that ever happened to jazz is it went out of the dance halls, the dancers kept the musicians honest.'

Which is funny because I've spent a lot of time around dancers who think bebop was the apocalypse. They were all hanging out with Norma Miller...

Dance roots were present in jazz even as the music moved towards being more a club thing. I think there was some dancing in the black clubs maybe with organ bands (have to ask Dave Stryker or someone?), Coltrane played R'n'B, Wayne played dances with Miles.

They all played dance gigs. That's why they could swing. The feel is still there. Listen to this tempo:

That's a dance tempo.

[rabbit]

I grew up taking this kind of "corn' for granted and waiting for something I liked to come 'round on the AM radio.

I can appreciate it a little more now, especially in the context of Scorcese's masterful use.

Percy Faith outfit, 'Delicado.'

[neatomic]

now this is hip dance music

the great slim n slam start things off

cheers

[neatomic]

ps- notice that the great slim gaillard starts with piano...he plays opening chords with his hands upside down!!! (that was a gimmick of his!!) then he picks up guitar!!! and sings!!..slam stewart played with tatum trio..prob one of the greatest bands ever...his specialty was playin arco and vocalizing an octave above..a master...(he's in that classic charlie christian-teddy bunn 1939 gibson promo shot!)

anyway i love that hellzapoppin clip!

cheers

[Marinero]

I don't think Benny was ever hip. Hipper than Glenn Miller perhaps. (no diss intended.)

But - he did serve an incredibly important function culturally, which was running one of the first integrated bands and presenting black talent - such as Charlie (and Teddy, Lionel and so on) - to a white audience.

There is a general feeling in the histories (I don't know how accurate they are, but this seems to be the vibe) that the music of Minton's playhouse was away from that commercial setting a chance for those musicians to really play... So that was the real hip thing and became bop a few years down the line... But I still find the Benny small band sides to be fresh sounding and compelling. I think you have to give Benny some credit for that.

Hi, C,

Sixty-three years as a musician, Big Band leader, Swing Jazz innovator and mentor to generations of musicians and his "incredibly important function" was integrated bands? He was a major mover and shaker in promoting Jazz music to the world, as it was generally played during his era, and provided a solid, creative platform where many musicians "cut their teeth" before they moved on to their own successful careers. Music and musicians should be judged aesthetically, pure and simply . . . not for their Sociological ramifications to future generations . . .the tawdry and tainted meat and potatoes of the University crowd. Play live! . . . Marinero

[christianm77]

Hi, C,

Sixty-three years as a musician, Big Band leader, Swing Jazz innovator and mentor to generations of musicians and his "incredibly important function" was integrated bands? He was a major mover and shaker in promoting Jazz music to the world, as it was generally played during his era, and provided a solid, creative platform where many musicians "cut their teeth" before they moved on to their own successful careers. Music and musicians should be judged aesthetically, pure and simply . . . not for their Sociological ramifications to future generations . . .the tawdry and tainted meat and potatoes of the University crowd. Play live! . . . Marinero

Yes it was an incredibly important thing for the time. And it showed how important the music was to Benny.

I have a lot of respect for the dude. I’m sorry if you feel offended by some of the important things he did.

[christianm77]

Plus my favourite Benny stuff is definitely the small band stuff. It is his most original stuff I think... (and his later small bands were great too, but obviously not quite as hip for the time.)

The other stuff is great, but I tend to turn to Fletcher, Chick Webb, Lunceford and early Basie for classic pre war orchestra stuff... Benny obviously took a lot from those musicians; but of course he was more famous and you got to credit him with some of the most iconic moments in big band music. And always badass playing.

[christianm77]

Also, there’s this:

[2bornot2bop]

Haha, Barry Harris said once - 'the worst thing that ever happened to jazz is it went out of the dance halls, the dancers kept the musicians honest.'

Which is funny because I've spent a lot of time around dancers who think bebop was the apocalypse. They were all hanging out with Norma Miller...

Dance roots were present in jazz even as the music moved towards being more a club thing. I think there was some dancing in the black clubs maybe with organ bands (have to ask Dave Stryker or someone?), Coltrane played R'n'B, Wayne played dances with Miles.

They all played dance gigs. That's why they could swing. The feel is still there. Listen to this tempo:

That's a dance tempo.

Who has Barry Harris been instructing? Oh that’s right, students, who didn’t dance to their music. Why was that? Because the music had moved on.

Coltrane as a kid played RnB. A man grows up and puts away childish things. Coltrane advanced the music forward and we’re all the better for it.

The period between’55 and’68, when Wes died was nothing less than remarkable in moving the music forward.

Who could foresee fusion? Not your taste? Mine either, but fact is the music moved on in the 80’s to so many young lions who put their imprint on the music.

Where are we today? Who knows, I’m still stuck in that soundtrack between 1950-1968. There’s enough there to spend a lifetime and still not discover it all.

Apocalyptic? What no Dexter Gordon love? I’d say your loss.

You want to spend your time dancing to Benny Goodman? No problem, no one is stopping you.

[Marinero]

Yes it was an incredibly important thing for the time. And it showed how important the music was to Benny.

I have a lot of respect for the dude. I’m sorry if you feel offended by some of the important things he did.

Hi, C,
"Art for Art's Sake" . . . everything else is chaff. Play live! . . . Marinero

[christianm77]

Who has Barry Harris been instructing? Oh that’s right, students, who didn’t dance to their music. Why was that? Because the music had moved on.

Barry Harris has NOT moved on lol. But I think there’s a wider point here.

Coltrane as a kid played RnB. A man grows up and puts away childish things. Coltrane advanced the music forward and we’re all the better for it.

OK that’s a really snobby stupid thing to say imo and also misunderstands the point I’m making; apprenticeship in dance bands gives you skills in non dance music.

It doesn’t have to be swing or R&B; it could be Funk, Salsa or West African pop. But the music needs that rhythmic intensity, and the dancers demand that rhythmic intensity from musicians. Barry was talking about swing music and bebop (which Barry maintains was in fact danced to) but you can expand the basic point.

Every jazz musician has done this pretty much. Just listen to the Brecker brothers for instance. You don’t learn to play like that doing background or polite club gigs.

But it’s also a reason why the music moved to straight 8’s a bit as well; the dance roots of jazz changed. Which of course takes us into fusion.

For my taste it is the dance roots of jazz that stop it from turning into mere prog rock (but without the pop hooks of a Yes, for instance.)

The period between’55 and’68, when Wes died was nothing less than remarkable in moving the music forward.

Who could foresee fusion? Not your taste? Mine either, but fact is the music moved on in the 80’s to so many young lions who put their imprint on the music.

See above.

Where are we today? Who knows, I’m still stuck in that soundtrack between 1950-1968. There’s enough there to spend a lifetime and still not discover it all.

Apocalyptic? What no Dexter Gordon love? I’d say your loss.

Yeah OK, first of all I’m not saying this; people I know say this. I’m not sure if you understood that.

swing dancers are their own subculture which is a bit hipster and so on. They also buy a lot of narratives from people like Norma Miller who was on the scene until she died last year and hated bop.

I love Dexter with all my heart and think he swings like a barn door, but few dancers dance to that stuff. (And needless to say Barry is on some of those classic cuts.) There’s reasons other than tempo and groove. The cuts tend to be too long for social dancing for instance.

i have played some Nat Adderly stuff on dance gigs.

You want to spend your time dancing to Benny Goodman? No problem, no one is stopping you.

I’m not a swing dancer lol. Not sure if you understood my post.

Bloody hell everyone seems up for an argument today.

[christianm77]

Hi, C,
"Art for Art's Sake" . . . everything else is chaff. Play live! . . . Marinero

It is probably comforting to assert this.

Reality is usually more complex.

My own understanding of Aesthetics vs Social aspects is constantly in flux. With Benny I think the two things actually worked together. You don’t actually have to choose....

(in fact Benny had to set a social precedent in order to get the musicians he wanted... which could be an example of the quest for beauty driving social change? Put that in your pipe and smoke it Regelski...)