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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Yeah, but a guitar is MUCH easier to play in different keys. Playing a C scale and a Db scale uses the exact same fingering on a guitar. Transposing on guitar is trivial, not so on a piano.
    Yeah, that's an advantage except when you realize that guitar has about 5 different locations to play anything and that the piano has only 12 different one octave fingerings for 12 keys all over the keyboard.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Again, are we comparing apples to apples? Two, three, four parts are difficult on piano or any instrument, I'd imagine. But are they really only EQUALLY difficult on the guitar...... or actually easier? To play basic four-part music on the guitar, fundamental questions have to be answered about how you're going to re-voice things on the fly.

    If it's not fair to compare flute music to piano , the same has to be considered with piano music , but the other way around. Are you saying "PIANO music" is difficult on piano? If so, is it actually EASIER to play on the guitar?

    Again, I would ask: Which of the following is more often true?

    Pianists have an easier time reading/playing "guitar music" or guitarists have an easier time reading/playing "piano music". All things being equal, I don't think there's any contest there.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Really? Maybe it depends on what level you play or aspire to play at. There's so many aspects to playing guitar that require real study. Chords, chord melody, scales, arpeggios and complex soloing, comping, sight reading, classical Pima right hand technique, sounds and tone, styles like bop, blues rock, country, pop. Damn. Much more diverse stylistically that's piano.


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  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Not if you want to 'do it properly' in the sense that a great fingering for g major might sound not so great for d major.... but yes there are definite advantages with chromatic stuff where the intervals stay the same.

    Using open strings complicates things too... but that's one of the guitars most beautiful natural resources.
    Agreed. The best chromatic stuff on guitar, to me, are movable chord forms. I occasionally work on my piano skills, and just moving seventh chords chromatically is a bit of a challenge!

    I'm not sure any instrument is easier to master than any other, but some are easier to get started on. So many factors... and at the end of the day the mind is the more important instrument to master

  6. #55

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    Just listening to "Just Friends" from the Bird with Strings album. Those flourishes that Bird plays strike me as not all that difficult on piano, but really, really challenging on a guitar. Clifford Brown's stuff on trumpet.

    Consider Conti's Precision Technique exercises...which are the Wohlfahrt violin exercises intended for beginning violin students. He says they are easy for violin students: He would try to pick them on guitar, and his violinist friends were always asking him "Can't you play up to speed?". (I think they're much easier fingerstyle.) Violin--one pull of the bow---many notes. Granted this is not piano, but pushing a piano key is a single movement like picking, but then there is the left hand to deal with.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The flute is just one line. Can you sight-read piano music? And to what level?

    And when you say guitar is hardest, do you mean for everybody or for you? Some people (like me!) find piano impossible but guitar much easier.
    Its not about me or about how I read the sheet on these instruments. What I was telling about flute was only an example.
    Well, sorry to say that but Your 3r question is not standard. How could I talk in the name of everyone here? Of course this was only my opinion.
    You find guitar easier because You can push the scales/chords/intervals/licks on the guitar, which You cant do on the piano. But if You can see the intervals it wont be so difficult. Of course YOu have to know the intervals inside chords, scales etc. but thats not linking to one or another instrument, that is a must if You learn to play any instrument. Learning the guitar at high level (what was the question) is much more complex because of its diversity. You cant play flamenco on piano for example, but You can play stride on the guitar!
    One of my jazz guitarist friends knows a guy who has master degree in jazz clarinet, and wanted to learn the guitar. After a few months he told to my friend that he stopped because he just cant „see” on the fretboard, he is going to stay at the clarinet, and the piano (where I live, if You visit conservatory or university of music it is a must to learn piano for years).
    Every instrument can stand its place in musical environments, and I am happy that we have so many of these. I just shared my opinion, because I learnt 4 of these beautiful instruments, so I think I have a right to tell it.
    It doesnt matter which instrument You choose, it can even be a simple whistle, it will be a lifelong journey to take its playing to the excellent artistic level. I chose guitar because I love the feel, the look, the tone, I am fighting with learning a lot of things on it, but I like it, and that is what is most important!
    Last edited by mrblues; 12-23-2016 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #57

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    There are a lot of interesting digressions here. I don't disagree vehemently with anyone's point of view. A lot seems based on one's personal experience, which is interesting but anecdotal.

    I had no problem starting out with guitar and can sight-read classical pieces reasonably well. Even though I can pick out a song on piano, e.g., Beatles songs, I can't really conceptualize it the way I can with guitar. Maybe that's just because I haven't focused on it.

    I'd like to see some research on this issue. Here are a couple of music teacher observations which I think are salient.

    Piano vs Guitar: Which is Easier to Learn for Beginners?

    Guitar vs. Piano: Which One Should You Choose? | Molly's Music Blog

    My conclusion is that instant gratification, i.e., first few months, favors piano. For early learning after that, IMO, the guitar is more approachable--once you get a few chords and positions under your belt. While some would say that intermediate-level playing is similar, personally (from having been to a gazillion piano recitals with my kids) I think the typical piano routine is more regimented and requires several years to achieve competence, while my observation is that guitar players make progress more quickly even without a formal teacher.

    As far as HIGH level playing, I really think they're very similar, no matter what the instrument, even flute ;-) You're talking about people who have mastered skill sets and are then pushing the boundaries to make art.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I would say guitar. The piano seems built to accommodate virtuosity, the guitar, to humble it.
    Interesting--I really wish I understood this--can you explain it in more depth please??

  10. #59

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    Well, just a few observations ... I love both instruments to listen to, but have only played a little piano very informally.

    The bar is much higher on piano. Because the potential is so much greater (10 notes possible, one note per finger move), the level of virtuosity achieved has been higher. To me there only is one guitar player who has done anything worthwhile in a pianistic style, and that's Stanley Jordan, who plays primarily tapping and also tunes in even increments -- thus neutralizing two disadvantages.

    What the guitar has different from piano is the beautiful sound of ringing strings, the string sound being more akin to vocal chords than anything the piano can produce. The slides into and out of notes, all the tonal variety.

    Now what do we mean by "high level"? Professional competence? Being a real star on the instrument, leading bands? It seems to be pretty much the same -- way more time commitment than I've given it.

    For my money, top 5 pianists, chronologically: Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Hiromi Uehara.

    No guitarist has equaled their virtuosity. It's rather amazing how close Wes and the 2 Pats have come.

  11. #60

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    A piano is harder than a guitar. While they both are made of wood, the piano also has some very hard metal inside.

    Also, a piano is much harder to lift.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilpy
    A piano is harder than a guitar.
    There's always one

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzinNY
    Well, just a few observations ... I love both instruments to listen to, but have only played a little piano very informally.

    The bar is much higher on piano. Because the potential is so much greater (10 notes possible, one note per finger move), the level of virtuosity achieved has been higher. To me there only is one guitar player who has done anything worthwhile in a pianistic style, and that's Stanley Jordan, who plays primarily tapping and also tunes in even increments -- thus neutralizing two disadvantages.

    What the guitar has different from piano is the beautiful sound of ringing strings, the string sound being more akin to vocal chords than anything the piano can produce. The slides into and out of notes, all the tonal variety.

    Now what do we mean by "high level"? Professional competence? Being a real star on the instrument, leading bands? It seems to be pretty much the same -- way more time commitment than I've given it.

    For my money, top 5 pianists, chronologically: Art Tatum, Oscar Peterson, McCoy Tyner, Chick Corea, Hiromi Uehara.

    No guitarist has equaled their virtuosity. It's rather amazing how close Wes and the 2 Pats have come.
    Don't get this argument. You are saying that more possible notes at a time equals more "virtuoso potential"? Thus you would rank Paganini on a violin playing primarily single notes at a time as a lesser virtuoso than the - say - one thousand top pianists in history?

    I also take exception to your last 2 sentences. I understand that you only mentioned jazz guitarists and pianists, but the point remains the same: how does one truly compare Rachmaninoff on piano with Yamashita on guitar in terms of virtuosity? You simply cannot.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Really? Maybe it depends on what level you play or aspire to play at. There's so many aspects to playing guitar that require real study. Chords, chord melody, scales, arpeggios and complex soloing, comping, sight reading, classical Pima right hand technique, sounds and tone, styles like bop, blues rock, country, pop. Damn. Much more diverse stylistically that's piano.


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    Your uncle, Mr. Mingus, was a very fine piano player in addition to his bass playing. Did he ever discuss playing the two instruments? (For the record, I think he was pretty atypical in his bass approach...almost played it like a lead instrument. Probably without listening to him, Jaco Pastorious may never have taken up bass.)
    Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-23-2016 at 10:44 PM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    Interesting--I really wish I understood this--can you explain it in more depth please??
    The piano is so logical. The guitar is a weirdo. There's a reason all music theory is really piano related.

    Segovia says it better:

    The guitar is the most unpredictable and least reliable musical instrument in existence...and also the sweetest, the warmest, the most delicate, whose melancholic voice awakes in our soul exquisite reveries.

    The guitar is the easiest instrument to play, and the hardest to master.

  16. #65

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    Jim Atkins, Chet's brother, said in a GP interview many years ago words to the effect that the guitar is the easiest instrument to play at an elementary level, and the most difficult to play at an advanced level.

  17. #66

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    Playing both at once is a bitch.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Playing both at once is a bitch.
    I dunno, this guy seems to be able to do it, how hard can it be?


  19. #68

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    Or with a few less keys...


  20. #69

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    I think this is a fascinating little story about how a famous professional non-guitarist rock singer inspired a kid to compose a guitar concerto . The rock singer is Yes vocalist John Anderson and the kid is a classical guitarist named Andrew Rubin . It's a very nice little story on inspiring young people to create music.Here is Andrew's account of the process:


    "Working with Jon was a fantastic experience. The piece started when we sat in his home studio and he showed me Rodrigo's "Concierto De Aranjuez." Then he turned to me and said "now you've got to write your guitar concerto!"

    He may not have the technical facility to play fast lead guitar or classical technique, etc, but he understands how it works. He can compose in that style through playing chords, singing melodies, and making a lot of suggestions (i.e. "change keys here. Play a solo and then go up a fifth". or orchestrally, "Maybe add some flutes here, and pizzicato strings." and so on)

    Jon writes very in-the-moment. He has said many times that he believes an artist's most candid (and best) work is usually in the first take or two. So he creates by improvising most of the time, just singing a line, or jamming on guitar and recording it, and then going back and refining it. He said that's exactly how he used to write with Steve Howe; and that's how the bulk of Guitar Concerto was written.


    Here is the Concerto performed live


  21. #70

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    I think this is a fascinating little story about how a famous professional non-guitarist rock singer inspired a kid to compose a guitar concerto . The rock singer is Yes vocalist John Anderson and the kid is a classical guitarist named Andrew Rubin . It's a very nice little story on inspiring young people to create music.Here is Andrew's account of the process:


    "Working with Jon was a fantastic experience. The piece started when we sat in his home studio and he showed me Rodrigo's "Concierto De Aranjuez." Then he turned to me and said "now you've got to write your guitar concerto!"

    He may not have the technical facility to play fast lead guitar or classical technique, etc, but he understands how it works. He can compose in that style through playing chords, singing melodies, and making a lot of suggestions (i.e. "change keys here. Play a solo and then go up a fifth". or orchestrally, "Maybe add some flutes here, and pizzicato strings." and so on)

    Jon writes very in-the-moment. He has said many times that he believes an artist's most candid (and best) work is usually in the first take or two. So he creates by improvising most of the time, just singing a line, or jamming on guitar and recording it, and then going back and refining it. He said that's exactly how he used to write with Steve Howe; and that's how the bulk of Guitar Concerto was written.


    Here is the Concerto performed live


    Navdeep Singh.

    TBH both music and performance are so...

    And there's a big chance the guy will soon have left hand problem.. is h really a classical guitarist by the way... who taught him to hold guitar like this? He looks like he just imitates classical guitarists poisture
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-24-2016 at 02:28 AM.

  22. #71

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    To me Stanley sounds cool because he has very cool natural phrasing... I never cared much about his two hands tapping tricks but I enjoyed his musicality

    as per playing both piano and guitar... I am sure it's about a couple of weeks of practice (maybe even a couple of hours) if you're a guitar player with basic piano skills and you'll do it... (but probably not this phrasing Stanley has)

  23. #72

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    As my late guitar teacher told me, "the beauty of guitar is that it's easy to learn but impossible to master."

    Piano is harder for me because on guitar, the two hands are contriving one note or chord, whereas on the piano the two hands are often very independent.

    Of course, I'd probably have a very different opinion had I spent 35 years on keys instead of fretboard.
    Last edited by Thumpalumpacus; 12-24-2016 at 05:23 AM.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah

    And there's a big chance the guy will soon have left hand problem.. is h really a classical guitarist by the way... who taught him to hold guitar like this? He looks like he just imitates classical guitarists poisture
    I'm curious as to what, exactly, you find objectionable. Is is the lack of any angle between the forearm, and wrist? The reason I ask is that I have a friend who is heavy into classical. I once did some fingerstyle with my left wrist in this "bent" position--when viewed from on front...the left arm is at angle of course, to the ground...descending from the right shoulder socket, and then again an angle, bent at the wrist...so that the entire forearm/wrist is at a say 130 degree angle, when viewed front-on.

    He said this is entirely "old school" and that this posture is probably what almost ended Aaron Shearer's career due to carpal tunnel stress injuries...Long story short...Shearer revised his technique, wrote a book on it...and now his approach is supposedly state of the art at Peabody Institute in Baltimore (and other places). My friend studies with a woman in New York who was at Peabody, she is about 35...Armenian, originally, and is supposedly a top 10 in the world guitarist. I can find her name if it is really important, but I don't have it at the moment.

    Acc'd to my friend, Segovia's technique has now been surpassed, and in his words, acc'd to his teacher, almost every top flight graduate from Peabody now surpasses Segovia's technique.

  25. #74

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    For those not in the know, you really need to check out Kazahitu Yamashita

    Kazuhito Yamashita - Pictures at an exhibition (BETTER SOUND) - YouTube



    He is the greatest technical phenomenon to ever pick up the instrument. He turned the traditions of Spanish pedagogy on its head. Unfortunately, it was received with much "butt hurt" from folks who spent their life saying, "it has to be done this way!!!"

    We can only someday hope he shares his pedagogical insight with the world. That being said you still need to be from another planet to actually play like him...


    Seriously, look into the history behind the concert posted above. It's said that during intermission (this was at the Toronto guitar festival), it looked like people had died. The dynasties of the classical guitar world were shown to be wrong about much of what they thought, by a 23 year old shy Japanese boy. After the first song (something everyone there had played so much they hated it), it took a long time to calm people down after seeing him play the piece with a previously unknown virtuosity. Really an amazing story.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Of course this was only my opinion.
    I understand, sorry!

    As you say, both instruments have their place and their own difficulties. Personally, I can't play piano at all. I can't co-ordinate my hands. The right hand is okay but the left hand can't play tunes at the same time - so for me piano is impossible :-)

    I find it quite easy to 'see' on both instruments. I can see the notes on a piano and also see the guitar fretboard in terms of positions, shapes and patterns.