Is Jazz from 1920s - 70 the 'best' and if so why

**Lazz** · 05-05-2016, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Coltrane's modal period was tremendously influential on the rock/counter culture thing...... certainly influential on bands like the Doors and the Byrds ........Was Jimi influenced by Trane? It wouldn't surprise me..........Elvin's drumming was a direct influence on rock drumming via Ginger Baker and John Bonham etc......Trane was also a direct influence on Steve Reich, and Reich's influence is felt everywhere

I always enjoy your posts, Christian. They guarantee a lot of fun and provocation. But I can't forget how you responded to one of my attempts to disagree, with the explanation that you often talk bollocks. It made me laugh then, as these examples make me laugh now. You never fail in throwing out stuff with which to disagree. And I say this with sincere genuine appreciation and delight. I hope you can accept that.
Thanks.

**Nate Miller** · 05-05-2016, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Maybe in general, music- either jazz, or rock/blues- doesn't play the same role anymore. It doesn't affect or change the societies, lives anymore. I don't see the way I saw it in the 80's and 90's, and can imagine the earlier decades. Basically, nothing is happening, no cultural revolutions. Jazz is just a part of that stagnant situation.

this is something else to remember....time was if someone was playing music, people didn't talk over it, they were riveted.

you see people didn't hear music all the time. They only time they got to hear music was when somebody was actually playing. Even after the advent of radio, radio sets and record players were like pieces of furniture. You didn't carry them around with you.

back then music wasn't wallpaper.

people didn't listen to music all day while they did other stuff

when they listened to music, they listened to music

those days are long gone

**christianm77** · 05-05-2016, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

must it be charlie parker? in his case, none. but then none of his contemporaries were as great. he was a singularity imo.

i'll be willing to equal tatum with jarrett though. or even CC to metheny (who clearly had an enormous impact on the following generation of guitarists, for better or worse.)

if large groups of musicians start to sound the same, the originator must have had quite an impact. in that sense metheny, brecker, scofield, even mehldau and bernstein, definitely benson, are stylists with an impact probably comparable to the stylists of former generations like brown, rollins, mccoy, henderson.

No it doesn't have to be Bird. Someone more or less on the same level of importance. I can't think of anyone who's still alive in this category, so for me it may as well be Bird.

Clifford Brown, McCoy Tyner etc - these are great jazz musicians. Jazz musicians will listen to them and hold them up as exemplars of the art - just as we do Mehldau etc today. They are very much within the tradition and part of the main course of our art form. So the comparison seems pretty apt to me.

I wouldn't equal CC with Metheny, if only because CC is in such a singular position as the first well known electric player for the whole of 20th century popular music. Someone his equal in jazz guitar would have to have a lot of influence outside of jazz to essentially be the archetype/creator. That's a big ask. I can only really think of Jimi Hendrix as being in the same class of importance. Essentially every in between is an irrelevance (I know I'm being very cruel, but jazz guitar is basically a sideshow) and everything after Jimi has been influenced by him even if only by rejection.

But the big figures? The icons of our music? I can't see anyone out there personally.

I kind of get the feeling we agree on the general stuff TBH.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-05-2016, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nate Miller

this is something else to remember....time was if someone was playing music, people didn't talk over it, they were riveted.

you see people didn't hear music all the time. They only time they got to hear music was when somebody was actually playing. Even after the advent of radio, radio sets and record players were like pieces of furniture. You didn't carry them around with you.

back then music wasn't wallpaper.

people didn't listen to music all day while they did other stuff

when they listened to music, they listened to music

those days are long gone

Jazz got louder as time progressed because audiences didn't sit quietly (or dance, which while active, isn't a particularly loud activity) By the 70's you had quintets playing as loud as a big band. I blame the 60's. All that revolution and free thinking and challenging authority and free love shit made people RUDE.

And I'm only kind of kidding

dortmundjazzguitar · 05-05-2016, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

No it doesn't have to be Bird. Someone more or less on the same level of importance. I can't think of anyone who's still alive in this category, so for me it may as well be Bird.

Clifford Brown, McCoy Tyner etc - these are great jazz musicians. Jazz musicians will listen to them and hold them up as exemplars of the art - just as we do Mehldau etc today. They are very much within the tradition and part of the main course of our art form. So the comparison seems pretty apt to me.

I wouldn't equal CC with Metheny, if only because CC is in such a singular position as the first well known electric player for the whole of 20th century popular music. Someone his equal in jazz guitar would have to have a lot of influence outside of jazz to essentially be the archetype/creator. That's a big ask. I can only really think of Jimi Hendrix as being in the same class of importance. Essentially every in between is an irrelevance (I know I'm being very cruel, but jazz guitar is basically a sideshow) and everything after Jimi has been influenced by him even if only by rejection.

But the big figures? The icons of our music? I can't see anyone out there personally.

I kind of get the feeling we agree on the general stuff TBH.

then lets take jimi. i like him better anyway. yes. we mostly agree. but i think just as the present scene is not as bad as it is often painted, the 20s to 70s were also probably not all that. kenny napper once observed to me that there was a huge amount of horrible bebop back in the days.

i dont see the icon either in "jazz" music, but tbh who are the geniuses or just icons in other fields of human endeavour these days? that would be a nice topic

**Hep To The Jive** · 05-05-2016, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

But the big figures? The icons of our music? I can't see anyone out there personally.

.

If you talk about our time, that's my point- no such thing is 'icon' anymore. Because it take both the audience and artists to play this game. I feel that public today reject the notion of 'icons of music', either consciously or subconsciously. Music or maybe art in general doesn't paly the same role anymore. I don't know why.

I teach music to kids, rock band classes. They don't understand what's a big deal about the passing of Prince or Bowie for example, or 'icons' like that. Because they don't have any icons of their own, it's only something that their parents did, so they just shrug. It's not a rebellion thing either, it's just ... a void or something.

**christianm77** · 05-05-2016, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jazz got louder as time progressed because audiences didn't sit quietly (or dance, which while active, isn't a particularly loud activity) By the 70's you had quintets playing as loud as a big band. I blame the 60's. All that revolution and free thinking and challenging authority and free love shit made people RUDE.

And I'm only kind of kidding

Perhaps. Young people (other than musos) tend not to listen, but people in their 40s+ seem to be more inclined to go out and listen to music. I wonder if it's always been that way, and back in 1938, the young people were dancing rather than listening rapt with attention...

I think some of the blame for rising audience noise levels also has to be attributed to the rise in noise levels generally - recorded music, rock bands etc.

**Nate Miller** · 05-05-2016, 02:26 PM

yea, I just don't get kids today. I'm so glad that I got to grow up when I did and not in the world of today

I got to have real freedom and also real innocence. We played outside all day long. we didn't have grown ups around all the time, so we had to sort it out for ourselves. My school hire professional bullies to see to it we were bullied properly and that we could cope with being in the workforce. These kids today are all soft. They get a leg broke and they start bitching

no, the more we talk about this, the more I see that it is young people that are the real problem

which is good news. I was afraid it was my generation that dropped the ball, but as long as we got the Millenials to kick around, 40s the new 20, right fellas?

**MarkRhodes** · 05-05-2016, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nate Miller

40's the new 20, right fellas?

Where I live, they say 90 is the new 60.... ;o)

**joe2758** · 05-05-2016, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Where I live, they say 90 is the new 60.... ;o)

awesome! so when I turn 30 this month I can be born anew?

**Groyniad** · 05-05-2016, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think the thing is jazz progressed so quickly...jazz was moving on before folks were done with the presvious incarnation of the idiom.

Now, for the last 40 years or so, we've been sorting that out, and finding all the cool stuff that can still be said on forms that are 50 years old...or more...

i think this is important

but i'm not sure that the last 40 years or so have had too much of the sensitive re-discovery of established forms going on. more trying to be new for newness sake than that i think. and most of that doesn't work.

remember the renaissance - that was a re-discovery of established forms - and it was not too shabby in the creativity department

i think that pure late forties be-bop is much under-developed - and hard-bop too

loads more there to re-hear - and that can generate a lot of new music

**rictroll** · 05-05-2016, 04:48 PM

So the music of a finite past is 'better' than the music that may happen in an infinite future?

I guess I don't agree.

**christianm77** · 05-05-2016, 04:57 PM

An infinite future... Such refreshing optimism.

I didn't say any such thing btw :-)

**Hep To The Jive** · 05-05-2016, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by rictroll

So the music of a finite past is 'better' than the music that may happen in an infinite future?

I guess I don't agree.

I don't think anybody said that.

**Philco** · 05-05-2016, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

i think that pure late forties be-bop is much under-developed - and hard-bop too

loads more there to re-hear - and that can generate a lot of new music

Thoroughly agree.
Because, for me, it has so much emotion when played with passion.

**Jazzism** · 05-05-2016, 10:47 PM

For mine, somebody thats pushed the music forward while having a phenomenal grasp of the tradition is Steve Coleman. I think he will leave behind a vast legacy and an important body of work for people to study. Hes created a certain style. Is a bandleader, that has also nurtured and grown other bandleaders in his groups.
cheers

**eddy b.** · 05-05-2016, 11:18 PM

If someone were searching for post 70's source material ie. songs to create a new standard jazz repetoire of harmonically rich, melodic tunes, I would look to Prince, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Jon Brion, D'Angelo to name a few. I'm just saying there's a lot of great songs that have been written since Tin Pan Alley, and chances are a civilian audience would delight to hear genius improvisations on a theme they already know by any artists as opposed to one more attempt at Stella.

**Stevebol** · 05-06-2016, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by eddy b.

If someone were searching for post 70's source material ie. songs to create a new standard jazz repetoire of harmonically rich, melodic tunes, I would look to Prince, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Jon Brion, D'Angelo to name a few. I'm just saying there's a lot of great songs that have been written since Tin Pan Alley, and chances are a civilian audience would delight to hear genius improvisations on a theme they already know by any artists as opposed to one more attempt at Stella.

Learn to program drum tracks and learn you're way around different instruments. You'll never pull this off with a real drummer. It will take forever to get tight.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-06-2016, 08:34 AM

Why are we always lamenting that things aren't happening when they're happening, right now?

**eddy b.** · 05-06-2016, 08:37 AM

Stevebol, with respect, 1st. I live in New Orleans home of the greatest drumming tradition in all of North America so trust me I have 15 drummers I can call right now
that can play those parts blind drunk, 2nd the concept is to take tunes from those artist and inject our own personality and musical concepts into their music as an example the Cardigans covering Black Sabbath's Iron Man.

**dasein** · 05-06-2016, 11:02 AM

I'm going to disagree with just about everyone. There's a lot of great, vital music being made that I think holds up. And that's been true from 1970 all the way to the present day.

I don't know how you would compare something to Charlie Parker or Duke Ellington. Frankly, it's hard enough to compare Duke Ellington to Charlie Parker, and we have the advantage of hindsight.

All a musician can do is make the best art possible as a response to the times they live in, and there are plenty of musicians doing that right now.

**Groyniad** · 05-06-2016, 11:27 AM

mr b.
e,g. that first track is very interesting - but only if you've spent the last twenty years playing jazz

the great music we're talking about (20s-70's etc.) managed to combine depth (interest - subtlety whatever) with immediacy

e.g. nat king cole singing paper moon; sonny rollins playing you don't know what love is; parker playing just friends with strings etc. etc.

this stuff is immensely intellectual and 'high-brow' - its happening now - and its great - but its for musical specialists (or phonies who are trying to come off as musical hipsters)

**mr. beaumont** · 05-06-2016, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

mr b.
e,g. that first track is very interesting - but only if you've spent the last twenty years playing jazz

the great music we're talking about (20s-70's etc.) managed to combine depth (interest - subtlety whatever) with immediacy

e.g. nat king cole singing paper moon; sonny rollins playing you don't know what love is; parker playing just friends with strings etc. etc.

this stuff is immensely intellectual and 'high-brow' - its happening now - and its great - but its for musical specialists (or phonies who are trying to come off as musical hipsters)

Well, I think Joey D doing the Quincy Jones tune isn't too academic, it's funky, it's got soul...

But I see what you mean.

My post was in response to the lament that modern players are playing Stella over and over and not looking for new stuff to make into "jazz," because that's a false premise. If you actually listen to modern jazz, lots of folks are finding new tunes...

The other thing is, writing is becoming cool again. Some of the best jazz artists out there today are releasing whole records of new compositions.

I think this is a great time for the music. So much great stuff coming out, so many great players. I think a lot of people just aren't looking for it...it seems some would rather read the liners to a blue note classic again and lament "jazz is dead" rather than go out and hear somebody new.

**Groyniad** · 05-06-2016, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, I think Joey D doing the Quincy Jones tune isn't too academic, it's funky, it's got soul...

But I see what you mean.

My post was in response to the lament that modern players are playing Stella over and over and not looking for new stuff to make into "jazz," because that's a false premise. If you actually listen to modern jazz, lots of folks are finding new tunes...

The other thing is, writing is becoming cool again. Some of the best jazz artists out there today are releasing whole records of new compositions.

I think this is a great time for the music. So much great stuff coming out, so many great players. I think a lot of people just aren't looking for it...it seems some would rather read the liners to a blue note classic again and lament "jazz is dead" rather than go out and hear somebody new.

there's a good deal of this sort of thing that goes on - you're absolutely right

but i'm addicted to the feel of intense swing and if it doesn't give me some version of that - usually because of a rock-based approach to the time (even the first of your clips employs that) - then i lose interest very quickly.

the joey d. clip is a different beast of course - its 'direct' or straightforward - but the time feel is not my thing at all, i want to say - because its not a jazz time feel. (for me e.g. the a typical bill evans ballad swings much more)