Is jazz a dying art?

[janepaints]

I don't know or really care if jazz is dead. Jazz is dead......long live jazz....or whatever. I refuse to not be happy today because I just discovered this song;

YES! though age 63, i still love to go dancing (tho a lot less often than when younger due to ancient knees) and thus i go to dance clubs and hear artists like pharrell...and in doing so i get inspired by many contemporary 'pop' artists...and live-remix dj's using realtime performance synths...and many of 'em are definitely making use of jazz elements...also heaps of latin, slavic, asian musics...imo we are witnessing the birth of a new planetwide music stew using every ingredient available...some strands and variants of which will surely, imo, result in the Shape Of Jazz To Come...

check out some of leon parker's stuff...and some of edward maya...and some of martin solveig...and some of pit bull and tons more...polyglot total mutt human beehive future grooves....

fave anecdote: lester young is recording a solo...suddenly he stops...bandmates ask "what happened prez?"...lester says "i forgot the words."

[kris]

Jazz is simply to complicated music for the people.

[cosmic gumbo]

Jazz is simply to complicated music for the people.

[larry graves]

:)...L...=++

[Vladan]

I think because Jazz has very small and specific audience, it just seems like it's fading away from popularity, but I contend that jazz as an art form, has never achieved popularity but to understand this, you would have to distinguish jazz of the 20s, 30s and 40s in which was a means of entertainment and the era when jazz was played with more artistic intent, say from the late 40s to today. I think that jazz as an art does not require an audience, just the artist itself justifies its existence.

Which was one comfortable position. You don't have to entertain, while you don't have to work too hard on composition, you just improvise over a progression (I know ...), you don't play entertainment music for dancingl, you play music for listening, people listen, as there's nothing else opn the market (except for dumb classics) ... and then ...

The Beatles! Booom!!!
They've decided they're sick and tired of entertainment. They want their music to be listened.
Nail in the coffin. Music for listening, with haircut. Everybody else is doomed ( I know ...).

That's where Jazz failed as popular music. It was not intentional. It's not entertaining any more, while there are "prettier" things to listen to.

Conclusion: Oh, WTF, let's go compete with classics, if they've survived so might we.

[Sam Sherry]

A dying are you say? Hmm . . .


"Curse you Benny Goodman and Lester Young! You are killing the true jazz of Louis Armstrong!" -- circa 1938

"Curse you Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie! You are killing true swinging jazz! Nobody can dance to this!" -- circa 1945

"Curse you Ahmad Jamal and Miles Davis! This the 'cool' crap is killing the true jazz of bebop!" -- circa 1953

"Curse you Cannonball Adderly and John Coltrane! You're killing jazz -- get cool, fellas!" -- circa 1959

"Curse you Dave Brubeck! You are killing true swinging jazz! Nobody can count this crap, let alone dance to it!" -- circa 1960

"Curse you Stan Getz! You're killing jazz by playing stuff that doesn't come from America!" -- circa 1961

"Curse you Bill Evans and Ornette Coleman! You are killing jazz, which is about songs and a beat!" -- circa 1962

"Curse you John Coltrane and Miles Davis! This frenetic crap is killing true jazz!" -- circa 1966

"Curse you Miles Davis and John McLaughlin! All that electric crap is killing true jazz!" -- circa 1970

"Curse you Woody Shaw and Bobby Hutcherson! Your reactionary insistence on playing songs on acoustic instruments is killing all the progress jazz has made in the past few years!" -- circa 1975

"Curse you Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea! All that electric crap is killing true jazz!" -- circa 1976

"Curse you Wynton and Branford Marsalis! Your reactionary insistence on playing songs on acoustic instruments is killing all the progress jazz has made in the past few years!" -- circa 1982

"Curse you Dave Holland and Steve Coleman! You've killed jazz -- nobody can even count this crap!" -- circa 1989


I could go on, but I suspect you all get the point. Jazz has been moving forward -- over the objections of its fans -- for a hundred years. And we love it.

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

For that matter, couple of years ago I was in Cleveland Ohio,

On a visit to America's North Coast, you might ask a jazz musician for tips. Try e.g. the jazz faculty at Cleveland State.

Cleveland's Pere Ubu was an internationally known avante garage band, which had to pay its way to appear on David Letterman's Late Night show.

Guitarist Jim Jones (RIP) used to tend bar, sometimes at the amateur night for artists.
Joined by David Sanborn and Debbie Harry, Pere Ubu close Sanborn's "Night Music".

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

McCoy Tyner was doing a hotel lobby gig last I heard. I heard club 55 paid $50/each. From what I understand, NY's the only place with a thriving scene but not many people are making a living playing

A friend of mine stopped playing clubs and focused on busking, because it paid much better.

[Kiefer.Wolfowitz]

sounds like the bop stop and yeah, they had a terrible business model and did not like to have black musicians play there and didn't serve food so they were doomed. They did donate the space to a music institute so some good came of it.

Extra! Extra!
Read all about it!

[Jonzo]

Actually, I am more concerned about the OP's son's proported lack of soul than the status of jazz.

There are plenty of things to be passionate about in life. Try to help him find his thing. It might not be music.

Also, there is nothing wrong with limiting screen time.

[cosmic gumbo]

Jazz as an art is definitely not dying, it's just that people are about as interested in listening to it as they are interested in hanging modern art in their living room. It hurts their eyes, ears, brains, and pocketbook.

[jzucker]

yes it is a dying art. It's no longer supported by any type of community. The artists can no longer make a living solely as artists. That's the definition of dying. That doesn't mean it's going to die off next year. There are still thousands of great artists making and growing the music but it's no longer a performance art. It's becoming a conservatory art, more like classical music which is the sad reality.

[nick1994]

Yeah, you got that right, jack. Most jazz guys are teachers, commercial arrangers/composers, session musicians, etc. Rarely do you find guys that only play jazz gigs and nothing else. And the majority of jazz guys from Australia revolve around the universities and their jazz programs, but I'm assuming it's like that in the U.S as well.

[Scot Tremblay]

I agree that Jazz guitar, like Classical guitar, is no longer a "performance" art. But I do not think it will die just as classical is not dying.

Having spent my life mainly in classical guitar I can say that over my lifetime there has been a notable drop in the number of venues available to play, less performance money, fewer in the audience, less, fewer, none.... but paradoxically...there are more superb players, more students, more teachers, more young folks playing, more universities/colleges offering degrees and more classical guitar makers making superb instruments than any time in the last 150 +/- years.

"Jazz" guitar could easily be subsituted for "classical". Look at all the companies offering a vast array of archtop guitars for modest prices, the number of superb builders making handmade instruments, all the written material being published by companies like Mel Bay, Hal Leonard, all the great players on this forum who have careers making money in fields other than music....Perhaps these are the signs of the last gasps of the art but I believe something different is going on. There seems to be a shift from the professional to the amature (amature in the best sense of the word) in both these arts. The true art is turning (perhaps "returning") to the people rather than the select few elite professionals at the top.

As Robert Fulghum said "Music is much too important to be left entirely in the hands of the professionals!" and I think that is what is going on with both classical and Jazz. Both these arts became too elitist, overly self important, lost contact with their audience and were in the process of being abandonded by that audience. I just think the audience got tired of it all and started working towards taking their art back...doing it themselves as it were, making music rather than just listening.

Just some random thoughts.

[3625]

Having spent my life mainly in classical guitar I can say that over my lifetime there has been a notable drop in the number of venues available to play, less performance money, fewer in the audience, less, fewer, none.... but paradoxically...there are more superb players, more students, more teachers, more young folks playing, more universities/colleges offering degrees and more classical guitar makers making superb instruments than any time in the last 150 +/- years.

Re: jazz & classical - I've noticed that relationship too - so much of the performance scene/audience and it's surrounding infrastructure has withered away to nothing/almost nothing, yet the average guitarist these days probably plays at a much higher level, and amongst the elite players there's an extraordinarily high level of musicianship - some real freaks out there.

My subjective perception of it all, is that I'm picking up a kind of 'spiritual death' that's been taking place in recent years affecting jazz and music in general. I think the sharing of information and knowledge via all the networking technologies (forum,youtube, etc.) has contributed to an overall rise in proficiency on some levels (though definitely not in terms in musical interaction and communication with others while playing) - but because of this spread of knowledge, there is no longer that feeling of 'mystery' to it all, which was responsible for creating that sense of genuine excitement and wonder which I think was way more prevalent in the past. The bombardment and addictive nature of infotech has made us feel desensitized, therefore depleting that 'spiritual' place that music used to occupy in our lives. It's like a battery that keeps getting drained prematurely - both as individuals, and society as a whole.

[fumblefingers]

well in terms of the art dying or not, i think it would require some objective measures:


1. jazz players - professionals (setting aside amatuers just for the moment)

2. jazz consumers - purchasers of both live and recorded music


does anyone have any numbers relative to say... 1949?

and by that i mean (1) total USA numbers, and (2) percent of USA population (deferring EMEA and APAC just for the moment).


thats four measures.

[fumblefingers]

Taking jazz guitar players as an example, my sense is that there are more now than there were in the 50s, who are scratching out a living. (for example, how many "big" names do we usually call out for the players between Christian and Wes? Kessell, Farlow, Johnny Smith, a few others. Contrast that with the boomers who are still going and the new guys coming up.)

and when we take into account all the jazz clubs in NY, LA, Chicago, NOLA, about how many butts in seats each year?

and CDs and music downloads? (or even rip-off file sharing)

my guess is that the numbers are about as large if not larger than they were in the 30s, 40s, or 50s in terms of overall numbers.

but jazz is the furthest thing from popular - AND - one has to expand the definition beyond straight ahead stuff. that last point is a big one, if we mean "is straight ahead jazz dying?", then its not even a question.

[nick1994]

If anything is being preserved, it's straight ahead jazz. It's the music that most jazz students tend to ignore as a lot of them focus on more modern styles of jazz. It seems that a lot of people had to be told to listen to Miles and Rollins and parker and Coltrane. And a lot of people in my 1st year at Uni didn't like playing through standards. People just think standards have been done before and going back to the classics is almost like a waste of time.

[cosmic gumbo]

The population of the US is double of what it was in 1952. Any jazz numbers have to deal with that. Ron Carter had this to say 4 years ago, after playing jazz about 50 years. The most recorded jazz bassist in history.

[randalljazz]

i remember some time ago reading that ray brown was the most recorded bassist. wiki now lists milt hinton and george duvivier as the two most recorded bassists...sounds like a fun research project...

[janepaints]

local observations...from about 35 miles north of philadelphia...

several friends frequently gig in jazz combos...one plays in three different bands...

within 18 miles of my town there are 4 clubs (that i'm aware of--there may be more) which feature only jazz...several more book jazz acts among the rock, funk, americana etc.

i'm aware of about 4 local pianists who regularly play solo in the standards/'great american songbook' realms...

35 miles north, in easton pa, there's a club that's jazz-only..dave liebman plays there often

outta philly, temple U's WRTI radio station has an all-jazz format from 6pm to 6am, seven days a week...

there's two local weekly jazz jam sessions--there may be more i'm unaware of.

a solo tenor saxophonist regularly busks on the sidewalks here in town...

alto saxophonist richie cole recently relocated to trenton, his hometown...last month he played a little tavern 5 miles south of here...people say the joint was packed.

i dunno if jazz is dying, but there's plenty of it hereabouts.

[fumblefingers]

If anything is being preserved, it's straight ahead jazz. It's the music that most jazz students tend to ignore as a lot of them focus on more modern styles of jazz. It seems that a lot of people had to be told to listen to Miles and Rollins and parker and Coltrane. And a lot of people in my 1st year at Uni didn't like playing through standards. People just think standards have been done before and going back to the classics is almost like a waste of time.

straight ahead being "preserved"? i agree to some extent. i'm helping. i listen to Real Jazz on XM Radio, almost exclusively.

But is it selling in a big way (or anything approaching a big way)?

Consider the players (on guitar anyway) who are earning a living - as leaders - and what they are playing, or should I say not playing:

Starting with Baby Boomers:
George Benson
Pat Martino - an exception?
John McLaughlin
Larry Coryell
Pat Metheny
Alan Holdsworth
Al Dimeola

Then get younger:
Rosenwinkel,
Nir Felder,
Julian Lage,
etc.

Can GenX and GenY make the kind of living that Ron Carter did playing straight-ahead? (Ron Carter has a large apartment in NYC. He doesn't have to take the train)

[fumblefingers]

The population of the US is double of what it was in 1952. Any jazz numbers have to deal with that. Ron Carter had this to say 4 years ago, after playing jazz about 50 years. The most recorded jazz bassist in history.

Yeah, he has some very valid points about the industry. Radio, festivals, record companies.

But then we have XM Radio and the programming is very good on Real Jazz. And they have Watercolors for smooth fans. And Sinatra, etc. Its very hard for local radio to compete with that. We have some good university jazz radio stations if one wants local programming - and some of it is available on the net! With the global connected access model changing one has to ask - how many stations do we need? A person can only listen to one at a time.

"Jazz" festivals and cruises etc are a bit mis-leading like he said. The talent line-up is full of pop and funk, and well, whatever's popular. Gotta make the numbers, and people ain't gonna pay for something they don't care to hear! Still, they work in the jazzers too (nice of 'em huh?). And, there are MORE festivals than ever before. For example, Aspen, Telluride, countless others (just refer to the Downbeat annual issue about festivals by US state and country etc). Many if not most of those were not going in the 1960s, and certainly not prior to that. The big US festivals are still going, and so is Montreux in a big way.

Record companies, and how they do business have certainly changed. Many artists have to self promote don't they? The trade-off is artistic freedom I would think.

[ah.clem]

On a tangent, I saw Ron Carter a few years ago at the Blue Note when in NYC on business. It was the most explosive show I can recall seeing in many years. I wish I had purchased tickets for the second show! If anyone gets the chance to see him live, do not hesitate! You will not be disappointed, no matter what instrument you play. If he's in a nearby town, make a week-end of it! The gentleman is 77, so don't put it off, see a legend before he's gone. Just my opinion.

[cosmic gumbo]

From the perspective of jazz musicians that would like to consider playing for a living, those currently attempting it, and those that are actually doing it, it is a fairly universal fact that the jazz market, economy, and audience is unhealthy and in decline. You won't find an intelligent jazz musician that would say otherwise. Law of supply and demand