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I assume you mean me and not the OP as I would like to hear from him as well. And I should apologize to him for hijacking his thread at this point.
Originally Posted by John A.
I don't record myself improvising much even though I understand I'm supposed to. I just take it as read that my improv is universally bad. This is the last time I tried recording improv. It's from 2018. It has been posted elsewhere in this forum previously. Apologies.
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11-20-2019 03:02 PM
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"Basically CAGED positions for every inversion of drop 2 chords"
Hey PrincePlanet, did you ever write these out? That sounds super helpful.
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First off, this is not so bad. You're making the changes and playing coherent, musical thoughts that fit the chords going by. Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
Room for improvement:
- connecting ideas
- a rounder, warmer tone.
Your ideas tend to start and stop in sync with the chords going by; essentially, for each chord that goes by, you play a lick that fits, but you don't connect the licks as longer phrases. You're also basically playing "position" licks and moving to a new position in order to play the lick over a new chord.
To break out of these patterns (literally!) you might try these ideas:
- learn to play all of your licks for one kind of chord in every position; for example, learn the lick you play over D-7 G7 at the third fret, at the fifth fret, at the seventh fret, and at the tenth fret. Do that with the E-7 lick and the A- and Ab- licks too. And so on. You might try to take each idea you have, such as the idea you play over A- and Ab-, and use them elsewhere, such as over D- and E-. (BTW, I'm just assuming you are using the Real Book 1 changes; I didn't actually check the video against any sort of reference like a guitar or a tuning meter.)
- learn to play the entire tune in ONE position. Then do that in other positions. For example, don't transpose your D-7 G7 lick by sliding up two frets. Learn to play it in without changing positions on the neck. As an initial attempt, try this at the 5th fret: D-7 and E-7 are both easily accessible there. For that matter, so is A-7. Ab-7 will fall under your second finger at the sixth fret. It's actually possible to play any key in any position, but that is an advanced skill that's outside the scope of "beginning improv." The goal here is to separate your musical ideas from fretboard mechanics.
- Take each musical idea you have (such as the one you play over D- and E-) and play that idea over every chord in the whole tune. Of course, a repetitive approach like this is not something an audience would want to hear, but it is something that will separate the conceptualization of a musical idea from the mechanics of realizing it on the fretboard.
- Try to connect phrases across barlines or across phrase endings. It might help to try to start and stop phrases in unusual places. For example, lay out for the first bar of the solo and then try to create a single line that navigates D- G7 E- A7. Then lay out for the next E- and try creating a phrase that fits over A7 A-7 D7 Ab-7 Db7 and resolves to a single whole note that fits C?, such as D natural (which implies Cma9).
- UPDATE/EDIT: Another way to break out of lick-playing and to learn to connect phrases is to practice soloing as a steady stream of eighth notes that you don't interrupt for ANYTHING. This will force you to connect chords across the barline in ways that you are not doing now. Do this rigorously for practice purposes, but don't overdo it on the gig. The flowing-stream-of-notes style in players like Pat Martino is great, but even he takes a breath here and there.
- EDIT2: Another good exercise is to try to structure the arc of your lines in the opposite direction of the root movement of the chords. For example, the first 4 bars could be thought of as D- to E-, and your solo treats this as a D- lick that you then slide up two frets to E-. To break out of that approach and add some natural counterpoint to your line, try constructing a line that goes in the opposite direction of the upward root movement. For example, you could play D- as its relative major of F major, and then just play E- as whatever E minor you want to use... thinking this way can help you to construct a line that moves downward, instead of following the roots upward.
- Doing all of this will take a long time and a lot of effort. Don't be discouraged by that. You are not blowing a ton of effort on one song. You are building skills you can use on any and every song.
Tone is a REALLY subjective thing, as evidenced by insanely lengthy discussions of "good jazz guitar tone" on this forum, so I will preface this by saying that if you like your tone, fine, don't change it for me or anyone else. And that my tone is different for a rock band than it is for a jazz trio. That said, I hear a thin, bright tone that's more rocky or poppy than jazzy. Try using the neck pickup only, rolling off some treble at the amp or the guitar or both (again, numerous discussions on this forum offer advice that I won't repeat) and going for a rounder, warmer tone. You might also switch to heavier strings, although it's not a must. I have 009s on my LP and they sound plenty jazzy when I want that tone. On my jazz box tho, I use 014s and the heavier strings do sound a bit fuller.
The really hard thing, for which there is no shortcut or one book that will substitute, is that you just have to listen to a LOT of jazz for a LONG time to learn how to think like a jazz player. This was the single biggest hurdle or task that I had to address when transitioning from being a rocker to a jazz player. I could understand theory, had a great ear, could execute chords and scales and such, but the really hard thing was learning how to come up with ideas that were melodic (as opposed to shredding on scales) and stylistically appropriate. The only way you can really do that is to listen a lot, transcribe the players who resonate with your aesthetic, analyze what they are doing so you understand how to do it in ANY situation, and then work to get that vocabulary into your playing. Like a baby who learns words, then phrases, then sentences, eventually you will learn how to combine these ideas (theoretical and stylistic) into your own musical statements. It takes a long time and a lot of effort, but, as others have suggested, it is a journey that is its own reward.
One practical exercise that may help is to seek out as many versions of one song as you can. Since you already know how to play Satin Doll, try to listen to as many versions of that as you can. See how different players approach harmonizing, soloing, and just the overall conception of their approach. Steal ideas that appeal to you and work them into your own rendition of the tune.
Hope this helps,
SJLast edited by starjasmine; 11-20-2019 at 06:43 PM.
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Based on that, I think you're being a bit hard on yourself. You're doing a decent job of mixing chord tones and a bit of chromaticism, and you've got some phrasing and variety going. It seems to me that you don't have a problem with knowing what notes to play (at least on Satin Doll), but you do need to be more solid, make it a bit more interesting rhythmically, and (for lack of a better word), be more confident. I would say there is a bit of a halting, uncertain vibe, and I think you can really only overcome that by playing a lot. I'd say don't worry so much about the study and theory side of things, and just spend a lot more time playing over backing tracks of tunes (in the absence of a teacher or other musicians) and trying stuff without worrying whether it's good or bad. Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
One specific thing to try is embellishing the melody (as opposed to creating an entirely new melody). You say you're struggling with improvising on Autumn Leaves, so start with that; it lends itself very well to that approach because of the way the melody alternates between measures of whole notes and quarter notes. On the quarter note measures, play eighth notes, just focusing on the swing/feel (literally, play any pitches without worrying about whether they fit or not). On the whole note measures, break that whole note up into different combinations of shorter durations and rests. Keep practicing that, and over time introduce other rhythmic devices., such as starting phrase on off beats, and triplets. Overtime, you'll find yourself playing less and less of the original melody and more and more of newly invented phrases. Check out Bill Evans's version from "Portraits in Jazz" (it's on yotube) for the ultimate example of melodic embellishment. I'm not saying you should be able to get to this level (I certainly can't), but it's a direction to head in.
John
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To the OP (dallasblues); hopefully, you are still around/haven't given up:
You have the same issue that I had when I came from rock, and that James has: you have to learn to think like a jazz player. If it's any consolation, it's also difficult for jazz players to learn to think like a rock player or like an authentic Chicago blues player.It's just that I'm stuck. I can learn arpeggios and scales and even play them over the chord changes until I'm blue in the face but I'm still not hearing it.
Plus, you are used to being able to play. Think back to when you were first starting out, when your fingers would get sore or when you would forget your place in a tune. As a jazzer, you are just starting out. So you have to set your expectations back to "beginner" level.
In another post you ask whether you are trying to walk before you can run. Yes, you are. Again, set your expectations and goals at "beginner." If you were lifting weights you wouldn't start out trying to bench 200 lb. Similarly, don't pick the hardest Bird or Trane solo as an initial project. Definitely LISTEN to everything, but in terms of teaching yourself the vocabulary, try to pick things that are closer to your current skill level, and stretch just a LITTLE, not an impossible amount.So, I've listened over and over to horn players soloing. I've tried transcribing them but always end up frustrated. Too damn fast!
Fast isn't everything. Cool-era Miles, Bill Evans (the pianist), Duke Ellington, Cole Porter... there's a lot of not-too-fast-but-still-beautiful work to emulate. Another poster mentioned Charlie Christian. Just about every jazz guitarist I know (including myself) stole from CC solos.
Actually, it's totally appropriate. One approach to jazz harmony involves selective alteration of specific notes. Learn the location and sound of root, third, fifth, seventh and so on in all of your current licks. Then experiment with what you HEAR when you flat the fifth or flat the third.I also just don't see how they're coming up with what they're playing. Was I just ruined by years of blues, rock, and country. Those are so much simpler to solo over. I had nice little patterns on the fretboard to base my solos from. Then I'd just move a few notes around that pattern to give them character. That doesn't seem to be appropriate in jazz.
You might also consider taking some harmony classes at your local community college. Understanding the bigger picture goes a long way.
I think that you said you're taking private lessons. That is great. Keep that up, and consider trying out some other teachers. Not to say anything is wrong with your current teacher, just that other perspectives and approaches might fill in some gaps for you. I read an article in GP mag once that said Randy Rhoads used to sign up for lessons with random guitar teachers in towns across the US when he was touring. Imagine having THAT new student show up at your door!
Anyhoo, I hope you're still on the forum and haven't given up, and that this is helpful. Being a great swimmer doesn't mean you should expect to be a great boxer the first time you step in the ring. Just keep chipping away at small, appropriate goals, and you'll get there.
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Thanks for posting. However much you might want to improve, just putting your playing out there makes it easier to have a good conversation with you. Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
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The Rock to Jazz bridge might be here: Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
He makes the changes in his soloing, adds chromatics and tension/release, etc., but it's a rock tune. They play over the changes, then a vamp, etc.
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You kidding? You can find 4 inversions for each type of drop2 7th chord anywhere! , even here on the lessons page. Originally Posted by Sam b
Now, that's 4 inversions, so only 4 out of the 5 CAGED positions, right? What to do about the 5th position? Well, either don't bother, or do what I do and fill that gap with a drop 3 chord.
I just found it helps to have no gaps, every CAGED position has it's home base chord, from there you associate the corresponding scales, arps, subs, patterns, devices, lines etc. If you do enough work on the "associations", then locating all your material is as easy as locating your chords for any tune...
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I know it offends people to express my very humble opinion about this, but every single time I've ever heard JG play it reminds me of the annoying kid at the high school jam... Jazz? It's not even good Rock! Originally Posted by Cunamara
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I see the path you're on, and perhaps the reasons for any frustration. Sure, you can get better at stringing licks together, but even getting great at that can leave you feeling as though you're not improvising. On the other hand, people who don't really rely on prefab lines always feel like they're "singing" through the instrument (and therefore really improvising) but might feel that their language is limited to what they can hear in the moment, instead of some great slinky, complicated lines that might only come through lick learning (your own or other's). You may feel you're at the crossroads at the moment - which way do you wanna go? Originally Posted by Jamesrohr1
Personally I feel a combo of both approaches works for me and I get inspired by players who seem to be doing the same, but are very skilful at hiding the seams...
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Also remember jazz solos are often not nearly as ‘improvised’ as people think. Listen to what Steve Swallow says about it here (I just came across this clip yesterday!) - his comments on this start at about 3:30.
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I like Carla Bley's 'Yard Goods' comment - Gary Burton said he pulled up student bands that would rush through the head only to play 'generic bebop' over the changes & tell them to play the tune... Originally Posted by grahambop
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... Second thatbased on that, i think you're being a bit hard on yourself. You're doing a decent job of mixing chord tones and a bit of chromaticism, and you've got some phrasing and variety going
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
I know it offends people to express my very humble opinion about this, but every single time I've ever heard JG play it reminds me of the annoying kid at the high school jam... Jazz? It's not even good Rock!
Oh thanks - it's so good to know that I'm not alone.....
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quoted:
You kidding? You can find 4 inversions for each type of drop2 7th chord anywhere! , even here on the lessons page.
Yes, sorry to be dense. The idea of drop 2 chords seem to illude me. I know that there's a ton of lessons on drop 2 but what I meant was: are there specific drop 2 chords that relate to the CAGED shapes?
I get CAGED so I was hopeful that, if there was an obvious overlay, I would finally be able to understand drop 2 better. I'm going to go back and try to figure it out again.
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Take C major 7th drop 2 inversions on the middle four strings for an example. Originally Posted by Sam b
The A shape has the root on the 5th string, so that is related to the root position drop 2 chord.
The G shape has the 3rd on the 5th string, so that is related to first inversion drop 2
The E shape has the 5th on the 5th string, so that is related to second inversion drop 2
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This thread is great. At least a year of practice ideas thanks chaps
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Yes, just figure it out for yourself and decide how to fill your own gaps your own way. It really is best if you don't get spoon fed this stuff, because you will take a deeper understanding away from it if you've struggled at least a little to suss it out. Your supposed to get headaches working it all out - even Wes admitted as much... Originally Posted by corpse
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Your opportunity to master something in life largely depends on how long you're willing to suck at it.
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I think many players get too involved with learning the instrument and not learning the language. Work on the music, listen and transcribe, don't just practice guitar. Also, pay a lot of attention not to just what you play, but to HOW you play it. Time, sound, interpretation. Transcribe vocalists.
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My apologies for not posting this sooner as I have been traveling for the holiday. Originally Posted by djg
As you requested, here are the first 8 bars of the solo posted here.
Your feedback is appreciated.
And my continued apologies to the OP for utterly hijacking his post.
Last edited by Jamesrohr1; 11-30-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Amen . . . Originally Posted by djg
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Thanks. I appreciate the feedback. I understand your point about grunt work verses theory. The problem with Jazz is that there isn’t is logical, linear path to success. One can never know exactly what grunt work one is supposed to be doing. Especially when I’m trying to teach myself. Originally Posted by djg
I figure I can’t go wrong with Parker heads. Lol
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I figure you be right. Good stuff. Keep going .
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Enjoying this thread. Great clip. Steve articulates something it’s taken me a long time to realise. I wish I’d known this long ago. (He doesn’t mention that Miles fired George Coleman for practicing his solos, but hey, Miles was a Gemini. :-)) Originally Posted by grahambop
You get a lot of purist advice - ‘oh you must improvise truly.’ No. You should aim to make good music. And when you solo you ideally bring something of yours to the table.... but you don’t need to place that particular burden on your shoulders. Luckily most audiences are not mind readers, and players kind of get it.....
Of course some people are true improvisers. But it helps to have a template... I think this Aebersold idea - here’s some notes on each chord, make a solo - is now what people think jazz improvisation is.... Well it’s kind of a template, raw materisls, but also there’s too many choices in there, no connection to the prior tradition and it can be really hard to prioritise things when the changes move quickly. Probably most players who use this end up working out/composing good sounding stuff they can use anyway.
But the idea that pure improvisation is a big part of jazz is down to the confusion from European music perspectives which get hung up on the fact that the bulk of what makes jazz jazz isn’t written down and that the music is collaborative rather than hierarchical. Like classical musicians, even those interested in improv, really don’t understand it’s a spectrum from composition to improvisation.
Furthermore there’s a bigger demarcation in today’s jazz performance practices. Big bands read from charts, small groups work from memory more often... in fact in the swing era, arrangements too were often never written down.... this changed later on.
I am trying to always make myself a more flexible and listening player, and I’m always in dialogue with my own playing (should I play this line? Or something else?) but I think to start with a blank page and a pot of paints and saying ‘go have fun’ certainly works for some impetuous souls - but not for all, and in terms of developing a mature approach to jazz improv, is not sufficient.
Anyway I’m planning to offer some more concrete ideas on this soon....
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