How many songs do you know?

[charlieparker]

Bruce Forman supposedly knows thousands of tunes. I struggle to remember how to play a song like Moose the Mooche weeks after I play it.

How do you go about ingraining things so you can play it on demand?

[JazzerEU]

I studied with Bruce, it’s true he knows thousands of songs. At my prime, I knew 600, now that I’m no longer playing full time, that list has gone down to 250. It’s all about being able to hear the melody in your head and if you don’t know the chords, be able to make an educated guess on the bandstand based on patterns from prior tunes you know and voice leading. Learning songs by ear will help you memorize them easier than learning them from a book. Also, you are what you listen to. During my career I only listened to jazz standards, so all of that repertoire was fresh. Once I retired from professional music, I started listening to other artists. It still takes a quick minute to remember the melody of some songs which jogs my memory on the chords.

[pamosmusic]

Bruce Forman supposedly knows thousands of tunes. I struggle to remember how to play a song like Moose the Mooche weeks after I play it.

How do you go about ingraining things so you can play it on demand?

My list is about 150 songs.

I have an A B and C list with about 50 tunes on each.

A are tunes I’ll remember on my death bed.

B are tunes I know quite well. If I haven’t played them in a while, I might need to whistle the tune or hear the changes once but they feel good.

C are tunes I need to keep looking at to keep from losing.

Listening and singing is big and underrated. Also playing the melody in lots of ways … in positions and registers and on single strings.

Humming or singing bass notes while you play the melody, or singing the melody while you play the chords.

I do lots of voiceleading exercises with arpeggios and stuff. That stuff is really good at getting tunes into the C list. All the melody stuff is what gets them into those other categories.

I tell students they should have three versions of every tune they listen to on repeat … their favorite version (say, Julian Lage on Autumn Leaves) … the classic version (say, Cannonball and Miles, or maybe Bill Evans, you get it) … and a vocal version (maybe Rita Reys or Nat King Cole).

They should favor the vocal version for a while too. That’s really helpful.

[charlieparker]

I studied with Bruce, it’s true he knows thousands of songs. At my prime, I knew 600, now that I’m no longer playing full time, that list has gone down to 250. It’s all about being able to hear the melody in your head and if you don’t know the chords, be able to make an educated guess on the bandstand based on patterns from prior tunes you know and voice leading. Learning songs by ear will help you memorize them easier than learning them from a book. Also, you are what you listen to. During my career I only listened to jazz standards, so all of that repertoire was fresh. Once I retired from professional music, I started listening to other artists. It still takes a quick minute to remember the melody of some songs which jogs my memory on the chords.

Remembering the changes isn't that hard, IMO. What's a lot more challenging for me at least is remembering the melody especially for bop tunes. Like I could figure out the melody to Blues for Alice from memory but without a worked out fingering I wouldn't be able to play it but I guess after enough gigs you develop that skill.

[charlieparker]

My list is about 150 songs.

I have an A B and C list with about 50 tunes on each.

A are tunes I’ll remember on my death bed.

B are tunes I know quite well. If I haven’t played them in a while, I might need to whistle the tune or hear the changes once but they feel good.

C are tunes I need to keep looking at to keep from losing.

Listening and singing is big and underrated. Also playing the melody in lots of ways … in positions and registers and on single strings.

Humming or singing bass notes while you play the melody, or singing the melody while you play the chords.

I do lots of voiceleading exercises with arpeggios and stuff. That stuff is really good at getting tunes into the C list. All the melody stuff is what gets them into those other categories.

I tell students they should have three versions of every tune they listen to on repeat … their favorite version (say, Julian Lage on Autumn Leaves) … the classic version (say, Cannonball and Miles, or maybe Bill Evans, you get it) … and a vocal version (maybe Rita Reys or Nat King Cole).

They should favor the vocal version for a while too. That’s really helpful.

Might be interesting to see what people's lists are. Maybe I should work on memorizing 50 songs.

[pamosmusic]

Might be interesting to see what people's lists are. Maybe I should work on memorizing 50 songs.

I'd work on memorizing three

A blues, a rhythm changes, and a something else.

[GuyBoden]

I've forgotten more songs than I now know.

You've got to play them regularly or they seem to vanish into thin air.

I'm not talking about reading them off a sheet, I'm talking about playing them from memory.

[JCat]

This topic has been discussed here before, and I think it's very interesting.
There are several factors to consider, e.g; your understanding/definition of "knowing a song"; your ability to read and write standard notation and chord symbols; what melodies, chord progressions and scales that you have internalized (your internal "archive" and ability to play by ear); your individual memory (access to your internal archive); your method/system to speed up/support memory access.

Let's be perfectly clear and honest; music memory is a talent/gift that some people got more of than others (this goes for professional musicians too), meaning that if you didn't get it you'll have to train this function and develop methods and systems to support it. But in the end of the day, there will always be someone that seems to know more songs than you, which sometimes makes that person a better musician, but most of the time what matters is your ability to pick up a new song and remember it together with the rest of the songs in the set you are currently performing (seldom more than 20 at a time). If you participate in several performing projects you may have to maintain a repertoire of more than 50 songs (which for most people means they have to sight read once in a while).

The requirements of a Jazz musician to "sit in" and perform some standard repertoire together with a band, is very different from a bar pianist, playing solo for hours.
You won't find many guitar players performing chord melody stuff for hours like a bar pianist. Mainly because it's very difficult and requires an extraordinary memory. Because it's not just about remembering a melody (the "head")...you also have to remember the chord progression...but it doesn't stop there, (because unlike the pianist), you also have to remember where on the fretboard to pick a certain note in the context, i.e you'll have to remember a finger arrangement. (this cannot be improvised, or you won't "know the song").

[JCat]

My best advice:
Once you have learned an advanced arrangement and rehearsed it; document it! Because you will forget it (most of the time already once you've finished your next arrangement). This is normal life for most guitar players. By documenting the arrangement (standard notation) it facilitates deeper internalization, but most of all it speeds up the process dramatically once you need to pick up that song again.

I've got a repertoir of about 200 arrangements that I have documentet myself (so that I wouldn't have to do it all over again in a year when I've forgotten those arrangements). I never forget a good tune, but no way I could play everything chord melody style from the top of my head. I can maintain about 20 advanced arrangements at a time, but more than that would just be improvising (cheating).

[brent.h]

OP, organise your melodies around shapes. That's how you leverage the nature of the guitar to help you memorise sounds, chords, and melodies.

E.g. The tune Moonglow. In the key of G, when you play it, you will notice that the melody is a simple E minor triad you can play on the 1st 3 strings. That area of activity is directly on the 'C' shape of the G chord starting on 5th string, 10th fret.

Now, with this C shape you can access the melody on the string set GBE.

The lower pitched version of the C shape is the G shape. With the G shape, you can access the melody on string set DGB.

This is how you can learn and memorise tunes in all keys. Trying play tunes in all keys so that your fingers and eyes become familiar with the shape. In good time, your ears will catch up. Once you can hear it, you never need to re-memorise the tune again.

You can still do whatever you want and learn all the bebop in the world. But if you don't try to at least learn easier tunes this way, you're not going to have that 'shape to ear' foundation you need for complicated tunes (which also demand more complicated picking techniques).

[joe2758]

From how I've seen Bruce speak in interviews, it seems he can play anything he hears in his head in any key (and I believe it). So, I don't have anything close to that skill, but I could sing (poorly, but the point is I know them in that way even a non-musician knows them) 30 standards off the top of my head even though I'd have to practice them before hand to play them.

I can only speculate. I wonder if Peter knows how the tunes "go" but not like fingerings per say? Do I make sense here? For instance, Peter, I bet you can play a standard you haven't played in years because you just can hear the melody and because you hear it you can play it?

That is the only way I can imagine someone can play over 100 tunes from memory. But, I'm not there so I dunno

[grahambop]

Bruce Forman did a video on this, the way he remembers tunes is just to recall the melody, that is usually enough information for him to get the chord changes. The reason he can do this is that most standards use building blocks of only a few progressions (not that many really, according to Bruce) or parts of diatonic cycles. The melody is enough for him to hear these progressions. (Where the tune has a very unusual chord change or modulation, that is one extra thing he does have to memorise).

He describes this as being like retrieving clothes from a wardrobe, the melody is the coat-hanger and the chord changes are the clothes attached to it. (As opposed to rummaging through a disorganised pile of clothes left on the floor).

So the key to this is to hear (and recall) chord changes as just permutations of common progressions, as much as possible. I can do this a bit, but I can see how if you played loads of tunes constantly (as someone like Bruce does) you could get a lot better at it.

Here’s the trailer for the video:

[djg]

That is the only way I can imagine someone can play over 100 tunes from memory. But, I'm not there so I dunno

i am sure i can play the chords to several hundred tunes from memory. i cant play as many heads and i am sure i cant even sing the melody to every song i know the chords to. but that is from 40 years of accompanying horns and singers. a trumpet player i know can play more than 500 songs, probably closer to 1000, basically every tune in grilles des jazz

[joe2758]

i am sure i can play the chords to several hundred tunes from memory. i cant play as many heads and i am sure i cant even sing the melody to every song i know the chords to. but that is from 40 years of accompanying horns and singers. a trumpet player i know can play more than 500 songs, probably closer to 1000, basically every tune in grilles des jazz

Yeah that's interesting because it's basically the exact opposite of how i thought it worked.

I thought it was like "I can't get camp town races out of my head, I've never played it but I can play it easily by ear and easily surmise the chords based on having learned a ton already." And then the guy can say he knows it but has never played it. and then they do it with standards.

But hard for me to imagine, I always have kept a small repertoire and forget how to play tunes if I stop playing them. Although I can play melodies by ear to maybe 30 standards I can't say I know them

[djg]

I've never played it but I can play it easily by ear and easily surmise the chords based on having learned a ton already.

yeah. that works until it doesnt. then you find out about your blind spots. usually on the podium when you're expected to lead while you actually need the first chorus to learn the song...

[charlieparker]

I've forgotten more songs than I now know.

You've got to play them regularly or they seem to vanish into thin air.

I'm not talking about reading them off a sheet, I'm talking about playing them from memory.

Yes. Same. I am not even talking about soloing or anything but more just being able to play the melody and comp on the spot for a song from memory.

[charlieparker]

OP, organise your melodies around shapes. That's how you leverage the nature of the guitar to help you memorise sounds, chords, and melodies.

E.g. The tune Moonglow. In the key of G, when you play it, you will notice that the melody is a simple E minor triad you can play on the 1st 3 strings. That area of activity is directly on the 'C' shape of the G chord starting on 5th string, 10th fret.

Now, with this C shape you can access the melody on the string set GBE.

The lower pitched version of the C shape is the G shape. With the G shape, you can access the melody on string set DGB.

This is how you can learn and memorise tunes in all keys. Trying play tunes in all keys so that your fingers and eyes become familiar with the shape. In good time, your ears will catch up. Once you can hear it, you never need to re-memorise the tune again.

You can still do whatever you want and learn all the bebop in the world. But if you don't try to at least learn easier tunes this way, you're not going to have that 'shape to ear' foundation you need for complicated tunes (which also demand more complicated picking techniques).

Good suggestions. I have always wondered if transposing a song to say 4 keys will help you remember it better.

I am also thinking of veering away from bebop and instead focusing on memorizing the 50 standards recommended here, 50 Must-Know Jazz Standards: Learn These Jazz Standards First to start with simpler stuff.

I am thinking of putting together a routine where I just play through the melody if 10 of these a day possibly in multiple keys.

[JCat]

Bruce Forman did a video on this, the way he remembers tunes is just to recall the melody, that is usually enough information for him to get the chord changes. The reason he can do this is that most standards use building blocks of only a few progressions (not that many really, according to Bruce) or parts of diatonic cycles. The melody is enough for him to hear these progressions. (Where the tune has a very unusual chord change or modulation, that is one extra thing he does have to memorise).

He describes this as being like retrieving clothes from a wardrobe, the melody is the coat-hanger and the chord changes are the clothes attached to it. (As opposed to rummaging through a disorganised pile of clothes left on the floor).

So the key to this is to hear (and recall) chord changes as just permutations of common progressions, as much as possible. I can do this a bit, but I can see how if you played loads of tunes constantly (as someone like Bruce does) you could get a lot better at it.

Here’s the trailer for the video:

I think he talks about comping and improvising, basically faking a song in a band context (possibly looking for a key that best suits the vocalist or making it easier for the horn players to sight read). This approach is based on the false assumption that anything can be made to sound the way it's supposed to in any key when played on the guitar. It cannot, for exactly the same reason like the vocalist cannot sing in any key...

Musicians got different ideas of the meaning of "knowing a song". One could argue, that the sole purpose of playing Jazz, is to free oneself from static arrangements...
From time to time I hear guitar players complain that they've been playing for years, but still cannot play a song (because they have been spending their time practicing scales in all keys)...

Alternative approach: Pick your key (make full use of the guitar) and make the composition justice when playing solo, like a classical piece. Internalize the arrangement. Now you know the song; the harmony, the melody, the rhythm. Document it (and you won't have to start all over if you forget it).

[brent.h]

Good suggestions. I have always wondered if transposing a song to say 4 keys will help you remember it better.

I am also thinking of veering away from bebop and instead focusing on memorizing the 50 standards recommended here, 50 Must-Know Jazz Standards: Learn These Jazz Standards First to start with simpler stuff.

I am thinking of putting together a routine where I just play through the melody if 10 of these a day possibly in multiple keys.

These lists often contain tunes that are too complicated even for a beginner. Be kind to yourself and learn much simpler tunes. You need to give yourself easy wins so that you remained motivated to learn. When you learn many easy tunes and across string sets and keys, your ears develop and your fingers can 'hear/know' where they need to go.

Why don't you just learn Moonglow across these string sets:

- GBE
- DGB
- ADG

And then tell me what you notice during this exercise? (There are so many good things to learn from just doing this, I'm not kidding.)

[Stringswinger]

I have performed with both Bruce Forman and Howard Alden in concert. Both of those cats have forgotten more tunes than I will ever know. I probably know close to a thousand tunes to some extent.

Some I can play in chord melody, and I know them very well, inside an out.

Some I can play the heads and I know the changes as I know them "pretty well".

Some I only know the changes so I can comp on them and take a competent, but not great solo on.

Some I can play in any key, others I can play in a few keys (usually about six). If I spend a bit of time studying a tune, I can play it in any key. It usually means being able to play the tune in two different positions

Cats like Bruce and Howard have a great gift that allows them to play thousands of tunes with ease. I don't have that gift, but I do have the ability to play what I hear and that took many hours of woodshedding to develop. If I don't know a tune that is called while I am on a bandstand and the group is big enough for me to lay out for a chorus or two, I can hear what the tune is doing and join in. And IMO, there is the answer. Develop your ears (and put in the time). Jazz is ear music, not eye music. Cats who need a chart to play All Blues need to stay home and woodshed before they play in public and turn would be jazz fans off to this music by displaying subpar chops.

In my career as a pro jazz musician, I have played over a thousand solo jazz guitar gigs where I had to play for hours without repeating a tune. I have sat in with top pros who expect big ears from the cats they play with. I was not born with the ability to do that easily. I worked hard and put the time in. Sorry to say, there are no short cuts. But if you do put in the hard work, I can say that it is worth it.

[pamosmusic]

I have performed with both Bruce Forman and Howard Alden in concert. Both of those cats have forgotten more tunes than I will ever know. I probably know close to a thousand tunes to some extent.

Some I can play in chord melody, and I know them very well, inside an out.

Some I can play the heads and I know the changes as I know them "pretty well".

Some I only know the changes so I can comp on them and take a competent, but not great solo on.

Some I can play in any key, others I can play in a few keys (usually about six). If I spend a bit of time studying a tune, I can play it in any key. It usually means being able to play the tune in two different positions

Cats like Bruce and Howard have a great gift that allows them to play thousands of tunes with ease. I don't have that gift, but I do have the ability to play what I hear and that took many hours of woodshedding to develop. If I don't know a tune that is called while I am on a bandstand and the group is big enough for me to lay out for a chorus or two, I can hear what the tune is doing and join in. And IMO, there is the answer. Develop your ears (and put in the time). Jazz is ear music, not eye music. Cats who need a chart to play All Blues need to stay home and woodshed before they play in public and turn would be jazz fans off to this music by displaying subpar chops.

In my career as a pro jazz musician, I have played over a thousand solo jazz guitar gigs where I had to play for hours without repeating a tune. I have sat in with top pros who expect big ears from the cats they play with. I was not born with the ability to do that easily. I worked hard and put the time in. Sorry to say, there are no short cuts. But if you do put in the hard work, I can say that it is worth it.

Peter Bernstein in that category too. A friend of mine who studied with him in grad school said Pete sort of shrugged of the question and then said somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 probably. I think after a point, you don't really keep a list and you just rarely come across a song you don't know.

[charlieparker]

Peter Bernstein in that category too. A friend of mine who studied with him in grad school said Pete sort of shrugged of the question and then said somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 probably. I think after a point, you don't really keep a list and you just rarely come across a song you don't know.

Peter toured with a famous organ player. Forman was playing gigs since h.s. Maybe playing that many gigs is a big help in retaining everything.

[RLetson]

Just a side note about memory and music. Tunes bubble up into my awareness all the time, often as complete performances/arrangements. Three days ago, for example, all unbidden, it was "Sarasponda," a song from my seventh-grade songbook, complete with the nonsense lyrics and more than a hint of how we sang it in class. In 1956. I can also recall an entire arrangement of "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus," including the choral chorus, though the version in my head doesn't sound as countrified as the Jimmy Boyd recording. (I just checked--I hadn't listened to that version since, oh, 1954.)

On the practical-musical front, I recognize dozens of standards and pop tunes of my long-ago youth and can often hum the melody. For the pop tunes, I can also recall hooks and bass and drum lines from the hit recordings (more of that sticky-memory effect). Which, of course, is nothing like having a strong enough grasp of a tune to play it on demand, let alone in different keys. Put a chart in front of me, though, and I can get through a lot more than any jumped-up folkie should be able to manage.

[kris]

It seems to me that the number of tunes here is of secondary importance.
It is important to get to know the songs well.

[Alter]

From one point on it's just about learning the melodies. If you know a songs melody you can support it many ways with chords. I always practice a melody together with chord roots, then play a tune in a few keys, this way you really learn it. At some point i knew about 500 standards, these days probably half of that. I had to learn more than 100 pop/soul/general hotel tunes last year which was way more difficult for me!

But i can hear changes and solo over stuff easily even if i don't know the tune usually, thanks to doing Mick Goodricks hearing exercises for years (playing over random chords).