Critical Theory, Musical Practice

[John A.]

Thanks John, would I be correct if I framed the question this way:

Is instrumental music capable of expressing/commenting on modern societal values., culture etc...and how is it done?

Yes, I'd say that's a good way to frame the conversation.

[joe2758]

In that case,

I would say nationalism, and rebellion

A national anthem with no or seldom sung lyrics has the strong symbolic presence because at one point it was presented as such, was accepted, and the perception grows stronger over time. Or songs that originated in a country and became "our songs," i.e. folk songs

With that basic meaning established, it can be reframed from different angles to make musical comments on the country. Like Jimi Hendrix playing the national anthem.

Or, with the various tunes having established nationalistic symbolism, Chopin used them to compose music that expressed Polish identity when it wasn't necessarily safe to do so. The most obvious example his "heroic" Polonaise which was adopted as a symbol of anti-Russian sentiments.

And of course the example already mentioned of the Romantic composers being the rockstars of their day still count because of it being mostly instrumental. That artistic statement of rebellion was simply established by breaking musical rules.

Jazz did...I guess any genre that broke previously established rules can express rebellion

There aren't many musical rules these days if any, so it seems most artistic statements would need to be lyrical.

The best you could do today is listen to or make music that MOST people don't like

[Christian Miller]

Thanks John, would I be correct if I framed the question this way:

Is instrumental music capable of expressing/commenting on modern societal values., culture etc...and how is it done?

An example that springs to mind right now away is the way Mozart uses different dance genres in Don Giovanni to express the class divide of its characters. In the finale of Act I we famously have a 3/4 minuet (upper class) against a Follia in 2/4 (middle class) against an Allemande (peasant) all superimposed on top of each other to reflect the class dynamic of the action. Obviously this in an opera, but it is expressed here in the nature of the music itself rather than the text.

Of course today, rather like Bach quoting drinking songs in the Goldberg variations, these associations are lost on most modern listeners.

Similarly the cultural associations encoded in today's music will be lost to time - at least in the sense of us having to have the joke explained to us by musicologists. I sometimes wonder how much we miss in Parker just because he's quoting stuff no-one remembers.

[joe2758]

nnoowww you're speaking my language

[John A.]

In that case,

I would say nationalism, and rebellion

But could you develop a guide to the harmony of nationalism and rebellion? I really don't think so, even though you might be able to write some sort of analysis of the musical devices that anthems have in common.

A national anthem with no or seldom sung lyrics has the strong symbolic presence because at one point it was presented as such, was accepted, and the perception grows stronger over time. Or songs that originated in a country and became "our songs," i.e. folk songs

Given enough repetition, anything can be associated with anything. I mean for some strange reason every time I ride a bicycle, Steely Dan's "Gaucho" pops into my head (I swear, this is true), but that doesn't mean Gaucho is an expression of the idea of bicycling.

With that basic meaning established, it can be reframed from different angles to make musical comments on the country. Like Jimi Hendrix playing the national anthem.

Or, with the various tunes having established nationalistic symbolism, Chopin used them to compose music that expressed Polish identity when it wasn't necessarily safe to do so. The most obvious example his "heroic" Polonaise which was adopted as a symbol of anti-Russian sentiments.

And of course the example already mentioned of the Romantic composers being the rockstars of their day still count because of it being mostly instrumental. That artistic statement of rebellion was simply established by breaking musical rules.

Jazz did...I guess any genre that broke previously established rules can express rebellion

There aren't many musical rules these days if any, so it seems most artistic statements would need to be lyrical.

The best you could do today is listen to or make music that MOST people don't like

People declare and repeat those associations, but I don't think that's inherent to the music.

[luk_luk_guy]

It's perfectly valid to examine musicians in terms of their political conduct, and music in terms of how it fits with institutions, relations of power etc.

...

Again, of course there's a social context for music, and people declare connections between ideas and music, but that's analogous to declaring that the color red is communist.

But (to elaborate) obviously there are at different times certain sounds indicative of classes, institutions, etc As you say though, a random observer (i.e. not part of the narrow historical demographics affected by those associations) would be hard-pressed to get that without looking for it.

It seems like music really is "sound without sense," and its ability to intentionally comment on culture evaporates as the precise cultural moment of its creation passes ("Lil Nas X isn't country!!" is now far behind us, and the cultural relevance of the hit song in question [of the song's country-cum-rap sound] is now almost nil; its value lies only in its sensuous qualities)

[RLetson]

Music without words is not connected to conduct by itself but by culturally constructed conventions. (I leave aside music-plus-dance or other situations where music has a kind of mimetic connection with activities and behaviors.) So for music to be immoral or morally improving or politically incorrect or incorrect or patriotic or corrupting-of-youth, it has to be connected to conduct by assertion or some kind of social convention or tradition. And conventions and traditions are constructed--that is, we make them up, even if often out of association. (Again, leaving aside elements of what might be called physical mimesis, such as marching.)

So "values"--that is, expressions of musts and oughts and don't-you-nevers--can be assigned to music, but they are not otherwise in the music. The middle-class white grownups who called rock and roll "jungle music" did so because of a chain of associations (however bogus and bigoted) with black culture, and they didn't want their kids behaving like those people. Pat Boone was safe, Little Richard not so much. (And if they'd known the background of "Tuti Frutti," they'd have plotzed even harder--but that's in the realm of words, not instrumental music.)

[Christian Miller]

But (to elaborate) obviously there are at different times certain sounds indicative of classes, institutions, etc As you say though, a random observer (i.e. not part of the narrow historical demographics affected by those associations) would be hard-pressed to get that without looking for it.

It seems like music really is "sound without sense," and its ability to intentionally comment on culture evaporates as the precise cultural moment of its creation passes ("Lil Nas X isn't country!!" is now far behind us, and the cultural relevance of the hit song in question [of the song's country-cum-rap sound] is now almost nil; its value lies only in its sensuous qualities)

The other week I did an audition for a teaching role at a posh private school. As part of this I coached a group of elementary school age children through a band rehearsal of Smells like Teen Spirit. Rebellious things become respectable. Popular music becomes classic. The Pistols are on the Graded electric guitar syllabus.

[joe2758]

I don't think that's inherent to the music.

I wouldn't refute any of those points. In my opinion nothing is inherent to the music, all the meaning is applied to it. For instance not even major is happier than minor key, that's not even inherent

my thinking was "how music can come to have those meanings projected on to it"

[joe2758]

The Pistols are on the Graded electric guitar syllabus.

what do you mean? Are you saying there are grades for electric guitar music similar to classical?

[Christian Miller]

what do you mean? Are you saying there are grades for electric guitar music similar to classical?

Yes

I don't think they are as valuable as the ABRSM exams in classical but in theory they are the same. You'll be pleased to know I received a distinction at Grade 8. Which I think is my only qualification in electric guitar performance, now I think about it.

I took it as an adult in 2011 (the exams did not exist when I was younger) and actually it was a bit of challenge. I don't like the way those exams (Trinity and RSL) use tab though - it doesn't IMO develop musicianship especially at the lower grades.

[Christian Miller]

[wolflen]

what do you mean? Are you saying there are grades for electric guitar music similar to classical?

Yes..in some musician circles-rock musicians for certain..have a unofficial grading system that has its carryover into how a producer and others
may choose one player over another..Steely Dan, Quincy Jones and many others did this on various projects.

So it is not surprising that this is adopted into "educational" formats.

Many rock groups have had studio guitarists on their albums..The Beach Boys..even Pink Floyd had a studio guitarist on one of their albums.

It is more subtle than "who is the best" and this, of course, could grow into its own multi thread discussion.

[joe2758]

well, slap my ass and call me wally.

[luk_luk_guy]

The other week I did an audition for a teaching role at a posh private school. As part of this I coached a group of elementary school age children through a band rehearsal of Smells like Teen Spirit. Rebellious things become respectable. Popular music becomes classic. The Pistols are on the Graded electric guitar syllabus.

I was in my own sweet way trying to give an example of this. A la the legions of Grateful Dead fans who are absolutely NOT hippies; music's timeless power to me seems codependent with its lack of inherent sense*/"meaning"/ideology. Yes I am rejecting my own original hypothesis btw I consider my original line of inquiry to be pretty resolved at this point

*What brainiac decided that "sense" should mean both "logic" and "feeling"?? nb I'm using "sense" to mean "logic"/"encoding" here and "sensuousness" to mean "ability to affect feeling" aka the part and parcel of music as I see it

[John A.]

I was in my own sweet way trying to give an example of this. A la the legions of Grateful Dead fans who are absolutely NOT hippies; music's timeless power to me seems codependent with its lack of inherent sense*/"meaning"/ideology. Yes I am rejecting my own original hypothesis btw I consider my original line of inquiry to be pretty resolved at this point

*What brainiac decided that "sense" should mean both "logic" and "feeling"?? nb I'm using "sense" to mean "logic"/"encoding" here and "sensuousness" to mean "ability to affect feeling" aka the part and parcel of music as I see it

Don't hold me to it, but my guess is that sense in the sense of "that makes sense" (if that makes sense) originated as something like "I sense that this is true/logical" and through usage drifted to the current usage as an (I think) English idiom. SFAIK, other languages that have some cognate of "sense" as "perception" and/or "meaning" don't have have "make sense," except as Anglicisms that entered their languages relatively recently. Est-ce-que c'est logique?

[John A.]

well, slap my ass and call me wally.

Um ... not my area of expertise, but doesn't one ordinarily have to pay extra for this?

[RLetson]

Don't hold me to it, but my guess is that sense in the sense of "that makes sense" (if that makes sense) originated as something like "I sense that this is true/logical" and through usage drifted to the current usage as an (I think) English idiom. SFAIK, other languages that have some cognate of "sense" as "perception" and/or "meaning" don't have have "make sense," except as Anglicisms that entered their languages relatively recently. Est-ce-que c'est logique?

My Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1933) tracks the "makes sense" usage back to at least the 16th century, based on the, um, sense of "sense" as "meaning, signification." The whole family of meanings of sense are branch off from the words for the physical senses and sensation--Latin through Middle French and thus into Middle and Early Modern English.

[joe2758]

I do not belong here.

[John A.]

I do not belong here.

That's what Horkheimer and Adorno said (although no one really knows what Horkheimer and Adorno said).

[Christian Miller]

well, slap my ass and call me wally.

That’s not the correct spelling


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[John A.]

That’s not the correct spelling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Colour me unsurprised that he can't be arsed to spell correctly.

[RLetson]

As my father used to say, "Well, bend me over and call me stoopèd.

[Eugle]

That’s a brilliant connection. Atonality really is like a "classless" system for notes. If that anthology gets too dense, I've seen some Khan Academy reviews saying their humanities modules are a lifesaver for wrapping your head around the context of 20th-century theory. Jazz is essentially the ultimate history of turning personal ideology into actual sound.

[ragman1]

the feasibility of communicating specific moral viewpoints through one's personal musical style

The whole world can rest assured that when they hear me play Autumn Leaves, probably not very well, there are absolutely no moral judgements in there at all, it's just a pleasant tune :-)