Giving Up.

[GuyBoden]

After actually "giving up" Jazz guitar for over 10 years, I re-started again a few years ago, but I'm only using simple single line Jazz phrasing and simple three note chords.

For Jazz guitar duo playing, I don't think I need anything else.

[joe2758]

If I didn't like it I wouldn't have started in the first place.

Yeah, that saved you a lot of time I'm sure. I think a lot of people (most?) don't have that sort of foresight.

There are also a ton of things I didn't enjoy practicing but I am glad I did as it helps me now.

There's a sense of enjoying the fruits of my labor, and letting go of further laboring.

[Strat-itis]

Do you mean you're giving up on trying to achieve a level of musicianship, or not taking on any new theory concepts? They're 2 very different things. Most people are already theory saturated and don't really need any more. They'd do fine with just applying what they know systematically to improve their musicianship.

While on the other hand it would probably be helpful for most musicians on the forum to improve their musicianship. This must be balanced with the reality of one's limitations, that most people are never going to become Pasquale Grasso. But that they can still improve their musicianship in targeted ways that are within their ability.

Even a lot of the greats work within accepting some sort of limitation to get on and ultimately make music that is enjoyable to the listener. So that's clearly part of becoming an actualized musician I would think. But to me I wouldn't ever want to give up on prime goals for my playing as long as they're rightfully within my ability.

T Monk, Duke, and Horace Silver sound like snails compared to Bud Powell, Bill Evans, and Art Tatum, yet they're still highly influential because of the musicianship they exercised within their ability.

[James W]

T Monk, Duke, and Horace Silver sound like snails compared to Bud Powell, Bill Evans, and Art Tatum, yet they're still highly influential because of the musicianship they exercised within their ability.

... and of course Duke and Monk are the top two most influential composers in jazz. Which is something...

[Tal_175]

T Monk, Duke, and Horace Silver sound like snails compared to Bud Powell, Bill Evans, and Art Tatum, yet they're still highly influential because of the musicianship they exercised within their ability.

You can add Joe Pass to that list as well. It's ridiculous how good a player he was. But that wasn't due to his conceptual complexity. Everytime I transcribe or look at a transcription of Joe Pass's chordal phrases, I am amazed with how much he built his ideas using basic voicings and their straight forward applications. He wasn't kidding when he said that the chords in his guitar chords book were the chords he actually used and improvised with. Moving inside chords using these voicings and connecting them with chromatic or dominant passers is how he made wonderful improvised solo and comping arrangements. He based his singleline stuff on a conceptually simple harmonic organization as well.

He was also pragmatic with his approach to fingerstyle. I read somewhere that (if I remember correctly), he took some classical guitar lessons but he decided that it'd take him a decade or two to learn the technique properly so he decided to wing it whatever way that felt natural to him.

[Strat-itis]

^ You're right. Every aspect of the music doesn’t need to be all crazy advanced, just the musicianship needs to be tactfully elevated.

... and of course Duke and Monk are the top two most influential composers in jazz. Which is something...

You're right, there's absolutely that.

[Lionelsax]

At an advanced age, after decades of trying, I gave up. I stopped trying to learn new scales, chord subs or technique (well, pretty much) and decided that I would work on forging a personal style using the tools that I already had. This meant relatively unsophisticated harmonic content, no double timing except at slow tempos, very limited jazz vocabulary and not trying to learn 300 standards by ear.

All things I found hard to learn or do. As it turned out, trying to work within these limitations worked out pretty well - in my semipro context.

I wish I'd given up sooner.

I was talking about this subject with my wife. Jazz pedagogy is a bit out of the reality, people love showing the leaves but don't be even aware there is a trunk and roots.
If you are only focussing on the leaves, you'll never know what a tree is.

[kris]

I"ve never practiced the guitar as much as I do when I turned 70.
I have more time now to practice the guitar and I don't waste time in the car going to concerts.
Practicing in itself inspires me – I discover new challenges on the guitar.
I practically play all day and I like to tinker with guitars/set ups etc/
I also spend some time on the so-called ear training.There is really a lot of it.
And of course, I listen to good music.
I"ve always done it – when I go on stage, I want to be honest with myself... It"s nice when the audience appreciates it.

[Christian Miller]

Learning new concepts might be overrated.

Consolidating and developing existing concepts and material is probably much more important.

Most things you can write out on the back of an envelope can take years to actually apply thoroughly…

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[Tom Karol]

I'm almost 77. I'm still learning and growing musically, but it sort of comes in the form of revelation about what I already know (but maybe didn't know I knew) more than consciously learning new concepts. However, in terms of physical technique, I'm no longer trying to get better; I'm just trying not to get worse!

[Tal_175]

In this day and age of information access it's easy to collect a large number of half-baked concepts that never leave the practice room. It always feels more rewarding to delve deeply into a single idea and explore it with curiosity and creativity. This type of activity often ends up becoming a gateway to other concepts.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm not sure you can do that consciously, it's something that appears naturally, if at all, usually after a lot of hard work for its own sake and not with the motive of attaining a personal goal.

I don't feel qualified to tell another player what they have to do to develop a personal style. But, I can say what I did that I think helped with that. Maybe others will post their own experiences with it.

Some years ago I spent an afternoon fiddling with my gear, mostly my pedalboard, which was an ME70 or maybe an ME80 at that time. My goal was to program four sounds that I liked. I've been using them, with minor tweaks, ever since. The sounds create a closer relationship between the stuff in my head and the stuff coming out of the speaker. So, it doesn't feel like playing the guitar with somebody else's hands (maybe not a great comparison, but that's how I think about it).

While soloing, I decided to focus on chord tones (which I already knew from prior drilling), arpeggios, a handful of licks I knew and pretty much the rest by ear. I dropped trying to think about more advanced theory while soloing, which, of course, is a very well known recommendation ("just blow") but I needed to remind myself.

I decided to start a lot of solos by playing sparsely and quietly. Most players don't do that to the same degree. But, they may have double time ability which allows them to build past where I can build. By starting
at a lower level, I can build without needing chops I don't have.

I made a point of mental scatsinging and playing those lines.

There were other things, but that's enough for this post.

I understand that the usual means of extensive transcription builds ears, vocabulary, chops and general musicianship but, for various reasons, I found a different path worked better. My guess is that those who can do it the traditional way are probably at an advantage, so, sure, try that first.

[ragman1]

I don't feel qualified to tell another player what they have to do to develop a personal style.

You've missed the point of what I said. I wasn't telling you how to develop a personal style. Quite the contrary, I said that if one tries to cultivate such a thing deliberately, consciously, it's no more than self-interested activity.

The means determines the end. If the means is egocentric so will the end be, with all the consequences of that.

[JazzPadd]

I approach my ad-lib similarly, starting sparsely to leave time and space for development so as not to expose my shortcomings.

To me it’s accepting limitations as assets and as opportunities for creativity. After a while, what from one angle can be lamented as shortcomings or even defects, from another angle contribute to developing individualized styles.

Intent and context matter, too. What does one want to do with this wondrous thing called jazz, and for whom is one playing it? And time is a factor as well, how much time does one really have, and what shall we do with what remains? It differs for everyone.

Having said that, I’m enjoying all the diversity we brought to this.

[rpjazzguitar]

You've missed the point of what I said.

No worries. It won’t happen again.

[rpjazzguitar]

To me it’s accepting limitations as assets and as opportunities for creativity. After a while, what from one angle can be lamented as shortcomings or even defects, from another angle contribute to developing individualized styles.
.

I think this is exactly right. Players who can do anything get more choices, but players who are more limited may find that those limitations are helpful in finding an individual voice.

[Lionelsax]

The problem is that everyone learns with tricks, it begins with chords and scale shapes, they are learnt without knowing what they mean.
Then harmony, that's a big subject, a lot of philosophy around it, mostly by guitarists who only play the guitar.
Yes, they play the guitar.
When it comes to sight reading, they think about positions to figure out where the notes are !
Why guitarists can't read well ? Because they are full of muscle memories coming from tricks they learnt.
Take a breathe, play some keyboard, play notes on your guitar, not shapes or tricks.
That will be a giant step.
The other day, we were rehearsing and the guitarist felt sorry because he began the tune on the wrong fret and played tricks and shapes at the wrong place along the tune.
Yes, he can play in every pitch. No matter if it's in Ab, Eb, Bb, that doesn't matter.
I can also talk about piano players who use the transposing function on their keyboard.

[Christian Miller]

The problem is that everyone learns with tricks, it begins with chords and scale shapes, they are learnt without knowing what they mean.
Then harmony, that's a big subject, a lot of philosophy around it, mostly by guitarists who only play the guitar.
Yes, they play the guitar.
When it comes to sight reading, they think about positions to figure out where the notes are !
Why guitarists can't read well ? Because they are full of muscle memories coming from tricks they learnt.
Take a breathe, play some keyboard, play notes on your guitar, not shapes or tricks.
That will be a giant step.
The other day, we were rehearsing and the guitarist felt sorry because he began the tune on the wrong fret and played tricks and shapes at the wrong place along the tune.
Yes, he can play in every pitch. No matter if it's in Ab, Eb, Bb, that doesn't matter.
I can also talk about piano players who use the transposing function on their keyboard.

Oh no I’m in agreement with Lionelsax

Tbh I think most guitar education (tutorials, books, vids etc) out there at the moment is about being told where to put your fingers.

(Don’t get me wrong at some point we all need to be told where to put our fingers, but eventually I hope we can learn to make that judgement for ourselves)

So then people say ‘oh reading is hard because there’s so many places you can play the same thing’ and I think ‘that’s true of literally any music you play on the guitar.’

But I think people are used to reading guitar music from tabs.

Of course some of this is quite understandable. Playing a Steve Vai solo for example is going to be quite a lot about putting your fingers in the right places, because if you don’t you probably won’t be able to play it at all (and maybe not even if you do haha). Tab is therefore an apt way to communicate that information and it’s no coincidence tab comes back in a big way in the 80s to fulfil this need. (But it’s notable that so many of the OG shredders came from a strong background in aural transcription.)

Sometimes riffs have specific details about fingering that make them sound authentic. And again, you need to be shown where to put your fingers to get the sound - even Smoke on the Water lol.

However I think people become reliant on it for everything - playing simple things that they could easily work out by ear. Mission creep, if you will. And I think it also makes people focus on the fretboard and ‘techniques’ (ie tricks) more than the sound.

There’s of course no single correct place on the guitar to play a Parker solo otoh.

That’s one of the biggest culture shocks going into jazz, because jazz is not a guitar culture like blues, rock or country and no professional players use tab in this world.

It’s a hard one for me as a YouTuber because what is expected from me is to show little pictures and tabs. Which I do. And the fact is those positions might not work for everyone for one, and I don’t think it’s getting to the core of what makes a person a better player either.

I was teaching guitar postgrads (!) and they seemed to be confused by suggestion that they play the melodies of their favourite songs on the guitar instead of working on note perfect tabbed out covers of Larry Carlton or whoever.

So I wonder if a lot of the things that would help guitarists get into jazz more (and tbh music in general) have to do with putting down the guitar. So, yeah.

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[joe2758]

So I wonder if a lot of the things that would help guitarists get into jazz more (and tbh music in general) have to do with putting down the guitar. So, yeah.

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wow, has that ever taken a 180! When I was coming up it was the exact opposite problem. Maybe because they can get some attention now with sm

[Christian Miller]

wow, has that ever taken a 180! When I was coming up it was the exact opposite problem. Maybe because they can get some attention now with sm

I can’t speak to your experience in isolation obviously - but these are general things I’ve noticed.

That said most could also do with knowing the fretboard better as well. So a bit of column A, a bit of column B.


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[emanresu]

This is how it looks like when done right:
youtube.com/shorts/hkZRFDlrmPk?feature=share

The giving up I mean.

[Kmatuhin]

but I'm only using simple single line Jazz phrasing and simple three note chords.

It would be interesting to hear your recordings!

[joe2758]

I can’t speak to your experience in isolation obviously - but these are general things I’ve noticed.

That said most could also do with knowing the fretboard better as well. So a bit of column A, a bit of column B.


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Right, literal isolation lol, and I don't know what it's like to be exposed to dozens of students. Of course it is a balance, maybe it was always leaned toward the non-theoretical approach. I swear I thought in the past you often emphasized spending more time playing. Yes balance, I just got the sense that the scales have tipped I guess.

[GuyBoden]

but I'm only using simple single line Jazz phrasing and simple three note chords.

It would be interesting to hear your recordings!

Here's a recent video, I am wearing a cap and playing the Blonde guitar (D'Aquisto Solo copy):

Trefor Owen is on the LHS, playing great as always at 84 years old, on his Gibson Johnny Smith.

Currently, I'm concentrating on practicing my comping, which as you can hear is my weaker area. It's only my hobby, I'm at a low level, but enjoy playing.

[Christian Miller]

Right, literal isolation lol, and I don't know what it's like to be exposed to dozens of students. Of course it is a balance, maybe it was always leaned toward the non-theoretical approach. I swear I thought in the past you often emphasized spending more time playing. Yes balance, I just got the sense that the scales have tipped I guess.

Pun intended?

I think playing with intent is essential. The intent can be - to work on something specific, or to play music.

Noodling - less so. Many play without intent, because they think that’s what improvisation in jazz is. I think people are set on this idea of improvisation which is not accurate.

To quote Mick Goodrick:

“Even though a lot of us are "improvisers," we spend a large percentage of time "playing" things that we know. We mix it up a lot, to be sure, but most of it involves things that we've worked with (to one extent or another) and things that we are (at least somewhat) familiar with.

“Pure" improvising is different than "playing." "Pure" improvising involves things that are unknown; things that you've neverplayed before; things that you are unfamiliarwith. "Pure" improvising is exhaustingly hard work. If it happens to you even a few times a year, you should consider yourself fortunate.”

What most of us work on is music - but that starts with intent and ideally pre-hearing what it is we are going to play. It all takes directed practice and that often looks more like composition or drill than improvising per se. It’s about building a repertoire. This starts with other people’s music - tunes, licks, ideas.

This is what jazz has in common with classical improvisation of course.

I’m not sure many understand the difference between practice and playing - or haven’t made that dichotomy in their minds.

(You at need least need to be listening critically to your noodling and choosing what you like and rejecting what you don’t.)

Sometimes it’s good to work on the intent in isolation. Singing the thing, tapping the rhythms. Which is how Tristano taught of course.

Then, work on how the intent is translated onto the instrument. Which is not trivial but perhaps less of the process than people think. Be a musician first, then a guitarist as Barney Kessel said.