Because we need to hear this

[wolflen]

let the world go by for a few and enjoy this

[jazzloverfat]

I've always found Matteo inspirational, but Joscho is goated

[Strat-itis]

^ Matteo clearly beat Joscho in their solos. Although Matteo likely composed that solo. It's not like anyone just improvises that. This is just too shredly and musical overall tho lol.

[Christian Miller]

Entertaining stunt guitar. Maybe Joscho swings that little bit more?

These days when I listen to this type of music I find myself enjoying the rhythm player the most. I think in GJ circles they are well loved haha


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[RLetson]

GJ culture, especially since it absorbed a bunch of non-gypsy players (notably young guys), has a love affair with high-speed, virtuosic soloing. Fortunately, some of these hotdogs can also be pretty musical, and I find Joscho to be one of them. (I first heard him about 25 years ago at a Chet Atkins Appreciation Society convention.) Mancuso's not so bad, either, and his flamenco-based technique manages to sound pretty idiomatic. (BTW, flamenco is another tradition in which young-guy high-velocity playing seems to my ears to be a bit overvalued--though it was already like that in the 1960s when I first encountered it.)

Like Christian, I pay a lot of attention to the accompanying players in a GJ band--though in my case it's because rhythm is all I can play. I did notice the rhythm guy in that video smiling a lot.

[Christian Miller]

I went to hear Bireli one time and I was knocked out by Hono Winterstein.

These guys are like great drummers.

[omphalopsychos]

one of them is definitely the more mature and experienced musician

[Hugo Gainly]

Entertaining stunt guitar. Maybe Joscho swings that little bit more?

Yes, indeed. Are they trying to cut each other, or are they displaying their wares? Whatever it is, and it is interesting to hear, it's all about their playing and not the music. But that's the thing now.

(It reminds me of Japanese technology a few years ago. I saw a boom box that had an EQ setting of music playing as if 'in a garage'. Because they could.)

[Christian Miller]

Yes, indeed. Are they trying to cut each other, or are they displaying their wares? Whatever it is, and it is interesting to hear, it's all about their playing and not the music. But that's the thing now.

(It reminds me of Japanese technology a few years ago. I saw a boom box that had an EQ setting of music playing as if 'in a garage'. Because they could.)

I mean have you checked out much modern Manouche jazz lol? That’s the vibe


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[Christian Miller]

Though tbh that’s most often one guy shredding his head off and another guy playing rhythm.


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[RLetson]

I mean have you checked out much modern Manouche jazz lol? That’s the vibe

In the years I was attending Djangofest Northwest, the younger* players clearly came out of a high-speed-playing cultures that I associate with rock/metal or bluegrass. Though, to be fair, there was also a lot of concern for getting la pompe exactly right, with just the proper amount of upstroke. Still, fingerbusting was the rule and the ambition. And also to be fair, it's hard to see, say, the Ferre brothers or the Rosenberg Trio close-up and not want to play like that.

It reminded me of the various technique-driven enthusiasms that washed through fingerstyle culture from the 60s onward, especially in the workshops of the 80s: mastering delta and Piedmont blues, Leo Kottke, Chet/Merle, Blind Blake, Celtic, tapping. . . . Virtuosic playing does inspire one, though sometimes the easiest part to work on is velocity.

* Me: over 60; them: under 40. My hero: Ry Cooder; theirs: Eddie Van Halen.

[emanresu]

I think what was played was a lot of skill, great time. But it was horrible.

[Stringswinger]

I think what was played was a lot of skill, great time. But it was horrible.

I wish I had the chops to play something that horrible.

[emanresu]

I focused on bass. The chords were the secondary on the back. This was... an awful experience.

[RLetson]

So what we're discussing is taste, for which, famously, there's no accounting.

[Mick-7]

I wish I had the chops to play something that horrible.

Yeah, well, chops are wasted on the young.

But seriously, the formulaic sort of lines he's playing are not all that difficult to play fast, as compared to, say, the sort of lines that Mancuso plays.

[wolflen]

So what we're discussing is taste, for which, famously, there's no accounting.

and yet..another tag line......"..his taste is in his mouth.."

[jazzloverfat]

Whatever it is, and it is interesting to hear, it's all about their playing and not the music. But that's the thing now.

But you can't separate the 2 no matter what genre we're talking about. At the risk of sounding obvious, music is a performance and how one interprets a piece and plays it, or what one brings to it, is part of the whole. Even in classical music, where the score is set in stone, the way someone plays can change everything - just look at how many Goldberg variations there are!

While I agree that some less experienced players might use virtuosity to hide certain weaknesses, it most certainly does not apply to either Joscho or Mancuso. Based on what I've heard them say about music and listening to them play, I feel they are fully aware of this interplay and are making best use of what they can bring to a piece to serve the score and thus create the magic that draws us to music in the first place.

[Christian Miller]

In the years I was attending Djangofest Northwest, the younger* players clearly came out of a high-speed-playing cultures that I associate with rock/metal or bluegrass. Though, to be fair, there was also a lot of concern for getting la pompe exactly right, with just the proper amount of upstroke. Still, fingerbusting was the rule and the ambition. And also to be fair, it's hard to see, say, the Ferre brothers or the Rosenberg Trio close-up and not want to play like that.

It reminded me of the various technique-driven enthusiasms that washed through fingerstyle culture from the 60s onward, especially in the workshops of the 80s: mastering delta and Piedmont blues, Leo Kottke, Chet/Merle, Blind Blake, Celtic, tapping. . . . Virtuosic playing does inspire one, though sometimes the easiest part to work on is velocity.

* Me: over 60; them: under 40. My hero: Ry Cooder; theirs: Eddie Van Halen.

It’s certainly much more of a guitar culture than jazz in general. There’s a certain inflexibility about some of the adherents as well, that I find quite challenging. It’s so stylistically specific esp at the early stages.

Anyway here’s a solo from Adrien Moingard from a gig I went to … I think this guy has found his own voice within that tradition. Also the least shreddy thing he played all night…

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[Stringswinger]

It’s certainly much more of a guitar culture than jazz in general. There’s a certain inflexibility about some of the adherents as well, that I find quite challenging. It’s so stylistically specific esp at the early stages.

This is all true. In jazz, the guitar is the red headed stepchild (no offense meant to gingers), whereas, in Gypsy jazz, the guitar rules. And in Gypsy jazz, there are many Django Nazis who would have problems with Django himself, should he return from the dead.

And speaking of things "challenging", playing a guitar with a scale length of 26 1/4 and a 1 3/4 nut is not for everyone. But not everyone in the Gypsy jazz world places chops above musicality. Check out Robin Nolan.

[RLetson]

This thread had me rooting around in my archives for photos and audio recordings from Djangofest Northwest and Chetfest, and what I'm struck by is the evidence of how a historically/culturally-bounded music spread beyond its original territory (gypsy/manouche/sinti/Romani/gitane culture) and attracted--and generally welcomed--outsiders who did not grow up within the old bounds. And, to be fair, it's clear that those from inside the old bounds had also been absorbing influences from other traditions--my collection of recordings and videos from the decades before the GJ revival (if there is such a thing) shows actual Romani who clearly dug Euro-American jazz. (As did Django.)

But that's what musicians do, even in strongly conservative traditions like bluegrass or slack key or flamenco or klezmer or heavy metal. (All of which, in any case, are historically syncretic, so there you go.)

But about my digital scrapbooks and souvenir CDs--Djangofest Northwest was revealing in two ways: the nature (and skills) of the amateur-guitarist participants and the range of takes on the sub-tradition that Django started. The festival brought in European artists of gypsy (the Rosenbergs and Ferres, Angelo Debarre), and non-gypsy backgrounds (Robin and Kevin Nolan) as well as North Americans (Pearl Django, John Jorgenson, Michael Dunn, Shelley Park, some California guy named Marc), and eventually acts that might have had a dash of GJ influence but were mostly strange-and-interesting or just swing-guitaristic (Fishtank Ensemble, 3 Leg Torso, a Paris-based Russian nightclub act, Whit Smith and Matt Munisteri). I suppose some of this fades into the background radiation of "world music," but it was pretty cool to see how "gypsy jazz" and "string jazz" and a bunch of contiguous musics overlap.

[emanresu]

I played the original Mafia PC game a lot. That's a lot of Django. That was cool.

[Christian Miller]

This is all true. In jazz, the guitar is the red headed stepchild (no offense meant to gingers), whereas, in Gypsy jazz, the guitar rules. And in Gypsy jazz, there are many Django Nazis who would have problems with Django himself, should he return from the dead.

Ha I've often thought this. Django played all kinds of crazy 'non Django' stuff lol

[CliffR]

But seriously, the formulaic sort of lines he's playing are not all that difficult to play fast, as compared to, say, the sort of lines that Mancuso plays.

You're having a laugh, mate.