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John Cleese on knowing yourself short vid.
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1107565601142949
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04-12-2025 08:15 PM
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I’m getting better every day.
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Basically, John Cleese is saying you need some intelligence to realise you're stupid.
Quote: John Cleese. "If you're absolutely no good at something at all, then you lack exactly the skills that you need to know that you're absolutely no good at it"
This quote seems like a catch 22. But, speaking about myself, I think that "Ignorance is Bliss."
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I was discussing my guitar playing with someone as casual conversation. They asked what type of music I like to play. I said "Jazz." They said, "Then how do you know if you are any good?" Not a jazz fan I surmised.
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In reality the thing that I am good at or think I am good at, I never planned it, and it comes very naturally to me. I don't have to work at it hard, but I cannot forget out and expect to stay in touch. It has zero to do with the guitar and I did not start actually doing it till I was 40 but in was in the back of my mind.
The things we are good at are usually innate in our make up as a person. Call them gifts if you want a better word to explain. One example is Wes, I think he was gifted in the same way people are good a chess, basketball, or even organization and getting things done. We could spend all day at the driving range and never get close to Tiger Woods because the innate things are not present. When thinking about it from purely physical it is easy to see but things like intelligence and wisdom not so forward.
Another example. My son is a former college 800-meter runner. He could run an 800 in 1:56 and while not world class by any standards it is way faster than almost anyone can run it. We could practice and get faster, but the limit is imposed. He has not run competitively in maybe 3 years but about 1 month of good training and he is back ahead of 99% of the daily runners even his age.
So here is the question. What are you good at and do you know it?
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Well, the more I read this forum and learn about jazz guitar the worse I am, I realise. Genuinely. The more I listen to good music the more I come to realise how poor I am. The more I read about music then the more I realise how little I know. In short, after forty plus years of playing I'm still a very poor player, or at least, a very basic player. But I knew this anyway, instinctively, and objectively. I can play enough to impress folks that don't know sh#t, excuse my language, but I can't impress myself, or indeed anyway who knows anything much about music at all. But I enjoy it, and now I'm retired I finally have the time to learn a little, albeit this has happened at that age when the brain really is too tired to want to learn. C'est la vie.
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He's a very smart guy and has a few nice videos of the popularising science kind, but he can't seem to shake his background in absurd humour (and silly walks)...
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I know that I'm absolutely not good at playing the piano nor alpine horn or mountain dulcimer (to name two I haven't even seen IRL).
Cleese would probably argue that I have enough foreknowledge about the piano, and he might even argue any musician knows enough to realise they can't be good at an instrument they've never touched.
What I'd argue back is that what one really lacks the skills for in his example is to know how "not no good" one could be at the thing in question.
(Funny really, I'd also argue with Darwin that what's really going on is not the survival of the fittest but the non-survival of the non-fittest
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Originally Posted by lammie200
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Really agree with the above from digger and Deacon. In part, I use my internal reaction to positive feedback as my litmus test as to where my skills stand.
I'm smart enough to know I'm a terrible guitarist, and I'm cool with that as long as the trajectory continues to moves upward. When someone says otherwise, heaping on praise - I feel slightly insulted, patronized, or I know it's coming out of well intentioned ignorance.
The funny thing is though, the difference between knowing I'm bad at something, versus being aware of a talent is nuanced and quite similar.
I reluctantly admit I'm fairly talented at my trade craft. Feedback like "Beautiful work, you're a true artist" - makes me feel embarrassed, self deprecating of my ability, and discounting of the praise. Text book Imposter syndrome. On analysis of this reaction, it's largely in part because it's just so easy for me.
So if I ever lay down a chord melody hanging with friends or family, and I feel embarrassed instead of patronized by positive feedback, just maybe it'll mean I'm starting to get somewhere with my playing...maybe in 20 years!
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I dunno man, Wes sat his self down in front of a turntable and learned the Charlie Christian solos by ear. Everyone nowadays thinks they can learn enough theory to skip transcribing and they sound like it. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
People do things the wrong way and blame talent, but I don’t think it’s like that.
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+1 Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Some people are talented. Some are not.
The Venn diagram of their skill level has enormous overlap.
I’ve been through college and as an eighteen year old, I was passed over at some schools for kids who were more talented. I realized fairly early that I’m a maniacal practicer with modest inborn talent and I can say from experience that I would absolutely not trade that for the opposite under any circumstances.
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Actually, Wes did it perfect he listened and that is music. He in my estimation had a good ear already innate and probably equally physical skills. This is not to diminish in anyway hard work and dedication to musicianship. However, someone without some of the innate skills will eventually learn some things with practice and persistence. There is also the possibility they give up trying really hard when progress is slow or not much. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I played baseball in college it was a division 3 school, but I had an offer to go to division 1 school on partial scholarship. I was a pitcher and worked very hard at it getting my control and body in shape. I could throw very hard and that was my innate talent at the time. I had a pretty fair rocket arm with decent control. So pitching I liked and worked at it got better. On the other side of the coin, I was a terrible hitter. I could not really hit anyone who had real heat. I did not possess the talent to hit very well. I like hitting and got better with practice, but I was never going to be much of a hitter.
As far the guitar is concerned, I have no delusions there are a ton of great players who can burn and smoke and will never make much of a name. However, I am the best player on the block I live on by far and in the right circumstances I can manage fine. I think I have little talent but have developed my ear over the years and it is better than ever. My fingers manage well and physically probably have some innate ability. But lets be honest here is a real-life example.
I ask my friend Marco (SS) about his repertoire of tunes and some playing situations. He said he could many times hear a tune he did not know. and after 2 choruses get it down (not me). His number of memorizes tunes exceed 500 and he has chops. Well, he smokes me with his ability, but in truth he is a top-notch pro player. I play gigs although not anymore to speak of, I taught for 20 years and jazz chord melody I am not ashamed of my playing. I am nowhere near his talent and ability, but I could still play with him and manage fine.
In a sense good is relative to the time and place you are with the guitar. Going back to the old days at GIT all the teachers were great and could play with anyone but it was a bigger crowd. I for instance love Joe Pass and Herb Ellis and listened much to their duo playing together. Herb was great and no second-class citizen but to me Joe had more chops and more real innate ability. It is music so not a contest I am throwing it out brutally honest on my opinions.
In the end we all have innate talents that seem to just fit us. Just look at great cooks and chefs, mathematical wizards, and doctors.
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Some kinds of musical talent don't need to be cultivated much, e.g., I could have been a professional vocalist, both of my parents were good singers. I never had to practice it to be good at it, or maybe I should say, it's easy to practice something that comes naturally. Playing guitar (or any instrument for that matter) is of course a different story, no matter how talented one is, it requires a lot of work to excel at it.
I knew a guy in high school who had perfect pitch, if you played a random series of notes or chords on a piano, he could name them, he didn't practice much though so he wasn't a good musician.
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How would you have any idea about Wes’ innate talent and the amount of time he spent practicing?
You know that “I just throw some raw meat in the case” is a joke… right?
I don’t know anything about his talent or practice either. But, I don’t get this defeatist, already given up attitude. That’s a boring outlook.
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For what it’s worth, I met my wife in music school. She was a vocal performance and music education major and she would take exception to this paragraph. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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This discussion is interesting to me. There are 2 related issues: talent vs training, and recognition of talent.
The best musicians IMO have an innate talent, basically a good EAR, which allows them through practice to develop into great artists. We all know people with talent who let their skills atrophy, and people who work hard and have a great technical facility, but don’t have that extra spark.
Anyway, the OP was about recognizing one’s skills.
The one big thing I’m good at is rather hard to describe. It’s not a specific skill, but it’s an ability to synthesize information and process it. You might guess this comes in handy as a physician, but I think it’s underrated, as people seem to appreciate some surface “brilliance” or a sign of accomplishment like a major paper published or being chair of a department.
But there are those of us who labor in the trenches, and just do our jobs efficiently and without much ado. I’d rather have a quiet bulldog as a doctor than a primadonna who’s head of a department.
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Assuming this might be aimed at me I can assure you Wes had innate talent. I don't know how much he practiced but he lived only 44 years. Many players have played and spend longer time playing the guitar that he did just because they live 2 twice as long but never touch his guitar abilities. Practice all you want and have a great attitude that is fine, maybe you will get to be like Wes. It is a realist assessment, but you can do whatever you like. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I have the highest respect for people who have no talent yet practice hard anyways
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Thanks man. That means a lot. Originally Posted by jazznylon
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Cleese used to be brilliant, probably up to A Fish Called Wanda, then sadly lost it, IMO. I don't pay much heed to what he says now - I think he supported Brexshit? WTF, and very disappointing when I remember running home from school to catch the latest episode of Python.
With regard to whether one is "good" or "bad", maybe just watch how others react to your playing because I for one am no judge as I only hear my bad notes.
In the words of Graham Chapman:
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Have you heard?
P. Metheny, by his own admission, practices a lot. I think it shows
https://www.facebook.com/reel/535599089223867
SLast edited by SOLR; 04-13-2025 at 10:32 PM.
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This is me. Sometimes I get complements on my "talent" but my only talent is being too stubborn to quit working on it. My kid has perfect pitch and is more interested in recording tech. I'll never have that great ear but I will do the work until it seems like I do. I feel like a year or two before my health goes south and I'm dead I'll be a pretty good player. If I could live 500 or 600 years I would be pretty exceptional starting around the 350 year mark haha. Originally Posted by jazznylon
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Did they sit their butt down and learn solos by ear, or did they try for 5 seconds, give it up and noodle over Allman Brothers Live At The Fillmore? Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Wes knew the Charlie Christian solos decades before Wolf Marshall made his book. So we know Wes put in the hard work. That’s literally all I’m going on, that and the anecdote that he played with his thumb so he could practice as his family slept. So he was putting in the time. Not watching pedal demos on YouTube and calling it practice.
I’m not saying this is what you do. I’m saying, the things a typical guitarist calls practice is hardly anything at all.
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Most people have that boring defeated attitude you mentioned earlier so they never do anything. Real practice turns into mind numbing work a lot of times and the average person seems to want 9-5 then a nice couch with dinner and tv not 3-4 hours of practicing licks and runs over a few select backing tracks after 8 or 10 hours at a day gig. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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The old saying that playing jazz well is one percent inspiration and ninety nine percent perspiration is mostly true. Wes had immense natural talent, but he put in the work learning those CC Solos. Bruce Forman once told me that he was mad at Joe Pass for having more natural talent than he (Bruce) did while rarely practicing (Bruce spent a LOT of time shedding and it shows).
We are given the gift of talent and we have a choice to use it or lose it. For many, career and family obligations come first and musical talent is put on the back burner and perhaps., is never developed. For others the desire to play is strong but the natural talent is not there (I have come across cats who shed like nobody's business and they still suck (and they always will suck). I wish I could wave a magic wand and help them, but alas, nothing I can do. It does trouble me that some cats like that go out and play gigs and probably turn off potential jazz fans.
As the Deacon said, I can learn a tune pretty fast and a lot of seasoned players tell me that I have "big ears" and they are not referencing my anatomy. Make no mistake I spent a LOT of hours in the woodshed to develop my "big ears". And the Deacon is right about talent being a gift. My great-Grandmother's first cousin was Gregor Piatagorsky, widely thought to be the greatest cellist who ever lived. And my Dad's first cousin Michael Isador (also in the Piatagorsky line) toured the world as a renowned concert pianist. I pursued other careers than music for many years, but was able to develop pro level chops in my early 40's. While I am certain that being a descendant of Sonia Piatagorsky helped, I also thing the hard work (perspiration?) made it possible. But I never developed into a world class player. Perhaps I started the serious work on my jazz guitar chops too late in life or my "gift" wasn't big enough? No matter, it has been a fun ride and I am grateful.
When I played two concerts with jazz guitar legend Larry Coryell in 2007, I was a bit intimidated at first and told Larry so. He told me this: "We are all climbing the same hill and some of us get higher up that hill than others. Nobody gets to the top and the goal should be to get as high up the hill as you can." Sound advice. My chops were nowhere near his, but I was able to hang with him through two concerts on two different nights. I could not have done that without both the woodshedding and some natural, God-given talent (You atheists are free to substitute nature for the God-given part).
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Which part? If I was a vocal coach, I'm sure I'd need to understand how to develop my singing ability (other than than just singing) but I never did that. I was speaking only from the performance standpoint. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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