Sight Reading Poll

[Bob_Ross]

5. I can sight read most things and the only catch is fast tempo or really complicated rhythms.

I voted #5, but Full Disclosure: I'm voting as a bass player, since that's my primary instrument.

If I were basing this poll on my guitar abilities, it would be closer to 4 or 3.

[bluenote61]

The chord symbols and slashes permit a broader range of possibilities by alerting you to potential conflicts with the chord the band, as a whole, is playing and also potential conflict with the bass line.

I think someone here in the forum once distilled this fact in one sentence:
Complex chord symbols don't tell what to play, they tell you what NOT to play.

[AllanAllen]

Calling yourself a musician means that you can sight read.

FALSE. You are gatekeeping yourself and limiting your potential by setting this bar.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I wouldn’t say that. Reading is a handy skill, but not essential for a musician. We’d be casting a lot of greats out of the pantheon were it true.


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[deacon Mark]

Any blind musician will be glad to tell you that sight reading is not needed or even to read at all. For someone with really great ears it probably does matter if they read at all as only some things require strict reading skills. Wes did not read music that I know but he certainly understood the structure of tunes and harmony and music theory in his own way.

Imagine me a sight-reading guitarist telling Wes he was not a musician.

[daveg]

The more you write, the better your reading becomes.

DG

[alltunes]

Not from a piece I never played. I would say that is an extraordinary skill. Though I have often relied on sheet music in performance for songs I know but need the sheet music for the melody and perhaps the chords too. Without the sheet music I would be doomed. Is this considered sight reading? For the record this has mostly been for fiddle tunes of the Irish and bluegrass type (friendly keys). Almost always need a lead sheet for jazz standards.

I’d love to see an honest YouTube of someone taking a piece of sheet music for the first time and executing it. You know along the lines of “Hip Hop DJ hears Jerry Garcia for the first time”

[Christian Miller]

Not from a piece I never played. I would say that is an extraordinary skill.

Not among non guitarists. Amateur string players and horn players are often decent sight readers.

Really you just do it an every day and you get better at it. Most horn players and pianists have been reading since early childhood. It's extraordinary in the same way that reading text is amazing. It is - but it's also learnable. A lot of it is just seeing lots of music.

On the guitar I do think it's hard because of the nature of the charts we have. A tenor sax player for instance, just has to read one line of music. A guitarist in a big band or other reading band might have chord symobls, rhythm slashes, single note lines. That's a lot more interpretation. A horn player can just put their reading hat on, and exactly execute what's on the paper. It's actually funny how great improvisers will suddenly became incredibly literal and inflexible when a chart is put in front of them. It's like a different part of their brain is switched on.

Guitarists on the other are always having to make decisions. That's hard to do on the fly!

The other thing is we don't have a culture of reading in ensembles etc. These other instruments do.

Though I have often relied on sheet music in performance for songs I know but need the sheet music for the melody and perhaps the chords too. Without the sheet music I would be doomed. Is this considered sight reading?

No

I’d love to see an honest YouTube of someone taking a piece of sheet music for the first time and executing it. You know along the lines of “Hip Hop DJ hears Jerry Garcia for the first time”

That might be quite a fun thing to do. Sight reading weird tunes from the nether regions of the real book etc on stream.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've now played or subbed in a bunch of big bands. Every one of them involves frequently reading charts that the band members haven't seen before. Most of the players do it without difficulty. When the leader stops the band it's usually because of nuances in the horns, not gross inability to read because the chart is unfamiliar.

Of course, some charts are harder than others.

And, typically, the guitar chart has a lot more ink on it than a trombone chart, for example. But, the guitarist can't complain because the piano chart is all of the guitar chart, plus the left hand. I only exaggerate a bit.

[Aiq]

For the experts: are BB guitar charts usually written like piano chords or symbols and rhythm hits?

I assume not much solo/notation?

[Christian Miller]

For the experts: are BB guitar charts usually written like piano chords or symbols and rhythm hits?

I assume not much solo/notation?

It really depends. It can be either of those things and anything in between. Guitar parts are written on a single staff, but sometimes you get a photocopy of the piano part

Some arrangers like the guitar to join in with the horn soli. Some give you a complete part with written chord voicings and all sorts. Others don’t know what they want and just write slashes and chord symbols.


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[rpjazzguitar]

Depends on the chart.

Often, it's chord symbols and slash marks. Hits may be denoted using notes with slash note-heads.

But, often enough, it's more than that. Plenty of charts have single note lines written out, often voiced with other instruments, but not necessarily. This, btw, is one way to find out if you know how to read - can you melt in with the horns or aren't you accurate enough?

I recently saw a chart, for the very first time, on a Pat Metheny tune where his solo was written out. I hope the solo wasn't written out on anybody else's part, because I didn't play it. I made up my own. Sometimes an arranger will show you what another section is playing, but probably not in that case, I hope. At least, nobody complained.

Some guitar charts have chords written out on stems without chord symbols -- and I've even seen that in bass clef on ledger lines (ugh!).

Often, the guitar chart is the piano chart with the word piano crossed out. Other times, there's one chart for both guitar and piano, but with instructions for each player, e.g, specifying which instrument should be comping.

[Aiq]

Thanks for the replies.

If I can get myself out of the house next week I will see the best (only?) big band in the area. I’ve met the leader and if I get a chance to speak perhaps I’ll mention there is no guitarist.

Long, long shot.

I did find myself in a large group jam, couple trumpets, saxes, bass, keys, no drums - the first meeting of said aggregation - the leader did send out emails of standard lead sheets with chord frames and I faked it ok. No chances thrown my way so I horned into a blues for a couple.

I didn’t go back as I got a square vibe.

The group next week is very good.

[rpjazzguitar]

What was the song?

I can't remember. It was a slow song. Most of it was easy enough. But, the solo had a lot of 16ths in a small area. Multiple ledger lines above the staff. I'd have preferred 8va, but tbh, it wouldn't have helped.

[Gilpy]

I learned to read playing trumpet in school bands (a long time ago!) I can read chord symbols but not notation for guitar very well.

I can write music just well enough to take notes at rehearsals to remember a specific melody or harmony. Much more convenient than recording something and then trying to find it later. Same thing for songwriting ideas.

[JazzKatua]

47 years with the guitar and I still can't sight read the first Mel Bay Grade 1 piece. I have never been able to get it despite hundreds and hundreds of hours working at it. It is embarrassing and I avoid situations where I might be expected to read- which means I have avoided most gigs over the decades. "Hey, man, I need a guitarist for a gig Wednesday, can you do it?" "Ah, shit, sorry! I have something going on that night." Maybe I'd say yes if they could send me the charts a month in advance.

Calling yourself a musician means that you can sight read, IMHO. If you can't, like me, you're a guitar player at best. Why would I waste the time of actual musicians and embarrass myself? They can hire someone who can do the job.

Many TOP Jazz musicians couldn't even read music scores; best example Chet Baker.
And don't forget: Wes Montgomery also!

So to quote yourself: "Calling yourself a musician means that you can sight read" doesn't account for these TOP Jazz Musicians.

If sight reading ain't your "thang"; stop doing it and focus your playing on what you can do and enjoy your playing. This way you won't get so frustrated about this sight reading part.

[frabarmus]

Someone mentioned the famous (sick) joke: "How to make a guitarist stop playing? Put a score in front of them". Well, just the fact that you can sometimes find the same pitch in as many as five different spots on the fretboard should go to show how little sight reading friendly an instrument the guitar is. Nevertheless, mind you, classical guitarists are good readers...

(I voted N° 3. I can, eventually, read anything... only extremely s l o w l y)

[Christian Miller]

Someone mentioned the famous (sick) joke: "How to make a guitarist stop playing? Put a score in front of them". Well, just the fact that you can sometimes find the same pitch in as many as five different spots on the fretboard should go to show how little sight reading friendly an instrument the guitar is. Nevertheless, mind you, classical guitarists are good readers...

(I voted N° 3. I can, eventually, read anything... only extremely s l o w l y)

I don’t understand that argument.

That’s literally true of any music you do on the guitar.

If you play “happy birthday” by ear you have endless options of where to finger it. In practice you probably have standard fingerings etc. As you would for reading.

Unless they can’t play by ear either and rely on being told where to put their fingers.


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[Aiq]

In 1967 I had an elderly (late 30s probably) teacher who taught me to read a C major scale and a chord chart for “Perfida”. 9th, 6th chords, the little Phrygian thing. I learned those but thought it had no value in helping me play Rolling Stones songs. Blown opportunity to benefit from his knowledge.

He urged me to keep reading, I didn’t.

1973, lessons from a guy now well represented on Truefire. Learned keys, major scale material , modes of major scale and generally got on track for Allman, Garcia rock improv.

He urged me to keep reading, I didn’t.

Now as a septuagenarian I am working on it. Getting a bit better at it.

Will I ever sight read? Magic 8 ball says don’t count on it.

Still I persist as I want “those little secrets”.

People tell me I play ok?

I would say if you are under 40 DO IT.

[deacon Mark]

Sight reading today. I pulled out my old book of transcribed Joe Pass solos. with his tune Forward Pass. I have read it down before but decided to try and get some of the solo memorized. I was not as such sight reading the music at least unseen but going over it bar by bar. I got thinking of this thread and if you happen to have heard Joe play this recording you know it is a monster of playing.

So, to that end I made the decision to clearly state I could not in any way sight read the solo at temp and play it. I could slowly sight read the sole and even then probably some errors for sure it is complex. Then it brings up the next problem if you could even memorize and play the solo at tempo you have to have serious chops. Bottom line is at least in my thinking no guitarist could really read the tune at tempo and play it correctly even in a few takes. I could be wrong but if someone could they might be the top sight reader in the world.

[rpjazzguitar]

I recall a story about Coltrane being faced with reading something and saying, "I can't play this!". It was one of his solos.

[Cunamara]

Well, just the fact that you can sometimes find the same pitch in as many as five different spots on the fretboard should go to show how little sight reading friendly an instrument the guitar is.

There are up to ten ways to play a pitch on the guitar, i.e., the first string open E above middle C: the open note, four fretted notes and five harmonics (two natural, three fretted). If you're Eddie Van Halen, you probably know four other harmonics for that note that I don't know. I've never bothered to sit and work it out, but I think that note is the one with the greatest number of options.

Classical guitar seems to try to simplify the problems this causes by limiting the use of fingerings for a given note, which is a logical thing to do. This often involves transposing the key to utilize open strings and doing a reduction compared to the piano or ensemble scores. Jazz guitarists don't generally have that option as we have to accommodate the horns.

[rpjazzguitar]

My impression is that the reason the guitar seems sightreading-unfriendly is that back in grade school when the horn players were in class trying to play together, guitar players were goofing off.

I think there's something to be said for learning to read early, because I don't know if I've met anybody who started reading in adulthood and got good at it. Maybe such people exist, but it's more common to meet an adult guitarist who wants to learn to read and can't seem to progress much.

Maybe having multiple places to play a note creates a barrier early on. You have to know where the notes are to be able to read. More choices can make it easier to play a difficult passage. Typically, the problem is accommodating the needs of the pick (for alternate pickers, anyway - I don't know about the economy guys). Refingering the left hand often gives a solution.

Eventually, you get to a point where you think a melody and your fingers find it, without any interference from the likes of you. It seems a little different for a melody I read. I'm usually consciously aware of the fingering. Once I memorize it, though, the fingers find it.

[Christian Miller]

There are up to ten ways to play a pitch on the guitar, i.e., the first string open E above middle C: the open note, four fretted notes and five harmonics (two natural, three fretted). If you're Eddie Van Halen, you probably know four other harmonics for that note that I don't know. I've never bothered to sit and work it out, but I think that note is the one with the greatest number of options.

Classical guitar seems to try to simplify the problems this causes by limiting the use of fingerings for a given note, which is a logical thing to do. This often involves transposing the key to utilize open strings and doing a reduction compared to the piano or ensemble scores. Jazz guitarists don't generally have that option as we have to accommodate the horns.

To judge from some comments I have heard, classical guitarist can't sight read either...

I don't buy it.... I mean, we have frets for a start! Could be worse.

Part from our confusing charts, the real reason guitarist can't read very well is they don't spend as much time reading as musicians who read well. We don't have a culture of it.

My reading has improved a lot since I started doing it every day. Funny that.

[Cunamara]

I think there's something to be said for learning to read early, because I don't know if I've met anybody who started reading in adulthood and got good at it. Maybe such people exist, but it's more common to meet an adult guitarist who wants to learn to read and can't seem to progress much.

That's probably true, as well as starting learning to play music early (age 8-10) when brain plasticity seem to make acquiring the information more efficient. I played cello for about a year in 4th grade (I wanted to play guitar and apparently the school thought the cello was close enough). I was an indifferent student at best, since I didn't want to play cello, but I recall being able to read the very basic music presented at the time. Didn't keep up reading music at all, though, and didn't get a guitar until I was 20. Nearly 47 years later and I still probably couldn't accurately read a page of whole notes at ballad tempo.