Ok, no more excuses.

[brent.h]

I'm 40, and I still can't read / sightread well. This has to change.

I got Leavitt's Modern Method and Bellson's Modern Reading to start. It's been a couple of days of reading, and it's been fun, challenging, and frustrating all at once.

With MM, I'm at page 25, and I go really slowly like maybe 55-60bpm. I notice that in almost every new piece, Leavitt throws in a curve ball line or arpeggio or chord that will throw you off if you're sightreading it immediately. It's been slightly annoying, so I've made it a point to take about a minute to scan the piece for those pesky bits and work them out quickly.

With MR, I'm at page 5 and I go at about 80bpm. I sightread the rhythms at one go. I'm quite bad at translating written rhythms into mental sounds in my head, so just to create a mini exercise for myself, I took a few of these one-bar rhythms, memorised and sang/tapped them for about 4-5 minutes. Sounds a bit dumb/slow of me, but I kinda need to hear the rhythm out loud or perform it kinesthetically to understand and connect with it.

I don't know if I'm doing this self-directed learning right. Want to learn, but don't know how to learn.

Advice welcome.

[James W]

I like to use Bach's sonatas and partitas for violin for reading. You might consider singing what you play or buy a book specifically for sight singing.

Otherwise I would say always scan the piece before reading through it and try not to stop while being consistent - you essentially end up reading ahead of what you're playing. But you probably already know this.

[brent.h]

Yeah I sight sing while playing MM passages like about 35-40% of the time. I am able to only because the pieces are still in C, are slow, and I can see the intervals between notes. Different key, different tempo, and I might not be able to pull it off.

I notice that I'm concentrating quite a fair bit on getting the rhythms and notes right, and as a result, I'm not paying much attention to the tone or sound production. The notes don't sound too sloppy but they don't sound as sure/solid as they should. Feels like learning how to drive all over again - so many things to pay attention to as a newbie.

[garybaldy]

It's never too late. I was lucky having learned the recorder from the age of 8 and then at 10 learning guitar with the Nick Lucas Plectrum Guitar Method. At 11 started doing the grade exams on trombone so learned the bass and tenor clefs. I've never really needed tenor clef but when I took up bass at 14, bass clef was essential.

[bako]

What are your weakest links in the process? Some possibles:

1. Note name recognition on the staff
2. Interval recognition on the staff
3. Fingerboard knowledge
4. Having a fingering plan (MM provides this in its examples)
5. Rhythm reconition aurally
6. Rhythm recognition notated
7. Understanding same rhythm figures at half time and double time.
8. Seeing longer notated sequences as recognizable patterns/content
9. Ability to sight sing is helpful although there are many excellent readers who hear nothing

The basics are rendering notes and rhythms, more advanced is accessing your inner musical sense and playing it with expression and interpretation.

What are your weakest links? My suggestion is to identify them and work them separately. Keep doing what your doing but add also lots of easy reading content for consolidation so that reading becomes a normal event.

[Christian Miller]

I'm 40, and I still can't read / sightread. This has to change.

I got Leavitt's Modern Method and Bellson's Modern Reading to start. It's been a couple of days of reading, and it's been fun, challenging, and frustrating all at once.

With MM, I'm at page 25, and I go really slowly like maybe 55-60bpm. I notice that in almost every new piece, Leavitt throws in a curve ball line or arpeggio or chord that will throw you off if you're sightreading it immediately. It's been slightly annoying, so I've made it a point to take about a minute to scan the piece for those pesky bits and work them out quickly.

With MR, I'm at page 5 and I go at about 80bpm. I sightread the rhythms at one go. I'm quite bad at translating written rhythms into mental sounds in my head, so just to create a mini exercise for myself, I took a few of these one-bar rhythms, memorised and sang/tapped them for about 4-5 minutes. Sounds a bit dumb/slow of me, but I kinda need to hear the rhythm out loud or perform it kinesthetically to understand and connect with it.

I don't know if I'm doing this self-directed learning right. Want to learn, but don't know how to learn.

Advice welcome.

Here’s a video I did on reading, hope it helps

It’s much less graded and complete but I’d always recommend the Adam Levy book Sight-reading for Jazz Guitarists. Perhaps a bit less graded- and some tricky rhythms. Adam is a much stronger composer than Leavitt and his pieces all sound super idiomatic and musical.

It’s hard to find good quality graded material that isn’t aimed at kids though. For the latter I recommend Guitar Basics, but that only takes you through to about grade 2.

I can only really think of the Leavitt Modern Method even today. The pedagogy side of it is really good.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brent.h]

What are your weakest links in the process? Some possibles:

1. Note name recognition on the staff
2. Interval recognition on the staff
3. Fingerboard knowledge
4. Having a fingering plan (MM provides this in its examples)
5. Rhythm reconition aurally
6. Rhythm recognition notated
7. Understanding same rhythm figures at half time and double time.
8. Seeing longer notated sequences as recognizable patterns/content
9. Ability to sight sing is helpful although there are many excellent readers who hear nothing

I love this! Grateful because this post truly ends my "I don't know what I don't know" phase.

Right now, I'd say 5 & 6 are my biggest weaknesses. 1 is slightly difficult at some spots where Leavitt writes a 3-note chord.

[brent.h]

Here’s a video I did on reading, hope it helps

Great video. So helpful to see what scores look like in a big band.

That invisible bar line concept is so helpful! It makes reading rhythms much more manageable and ties in so well with what I'm seeing in Bellson's book.

[joe2758]

Are you thinking in note names or scale degrees?

[Mick-7]

Are you thinking in note names or scale degrees?

I suppose that could/should fall under bako's point #2. "Interval recognition on the staff" - recognizing diatonic intervals, in the key you're in, versus those that are outside the tonal center.

[brent.h]

Are you thinking in note names or scale degrees?

Great question.

When I see single note lines, I think scale degrees.

When I see a 3-note chord, all I'm 'thinking' is something like this:

Ok, is that a triad?
If yes, which inversion?
If no, then what notes are there exactly? Oh I see an F, G, D... seems like a G7 without a 3rd

[joe2758]

Great question.

When I see single note lines, I think scale degrees.

When I see a 3-note chord, all I'm 'thinking' is something like this:

Ok, is that a triad?
If yes, which inversion?
If no, then what notes are there exactly? Oh I see an F, G, D... seems like a G7 without a 3rd

Well that will certainly slow you down. Why not just think 4, 5, 2? Even better would be solfeggio, but I doubt you'd want to undertake that. Fa Sol Re

[bako]

One easy visual thing that took me too long to realize about notated intervals but was helpful when I did:

Even intervals 2nd,4th,6th,8th,10th,5th-8ve(12th),7th-8ve(14th)
go from either space to line or line to space

Odd intervals 3rds,5ths,7ths,9ths,11ths,13ths,2 8ve(15th)
go from either space to space or line to line

While this doesn't differentiate major or minor intervals, within a key signatures there is a consistent pattern.
This visually can get a bit more obtuse when near every note has an accidental but in general is very helpful.

[starjasmine]

Odd intervals 3rds,5ths,7ths,9ths,11ths,13ths,2 8ve(15th)
go from either space to space or line to line

Taking this one step further, since most often we build chords in tertian harmony (harmony in 3rds), that means when you see a string of notes that go space to space or line to line, you are looking at an arpeggio, a chord. If there are no accidentals, it's a diatonic chord - one composed entirely of in-key notes. Learn your diatonic 7th chords so you can use this as a shortcut to read groups of notes instead of reading one note at a time. For example, we all know that the spaces on the treble clef are F A C E. When you see these notes as an arpeggio (or as a block chord) in the key of C you know that you are seeing an Fma7 chord, without having to read each note.

This shortcut will also help you to quickly understand the function of any accidentals you might run across: if the accidental is a 3rd or a 7th, you're probably seeing a secondary dominant. If not, it might be an altered extension. If the run of space-to-space or line-to-line suddenly becomes space-to-line or line-to-space, you are seeing a passing tone.

Bako's suggestion to scan the entire piece top to bottom before trying to read it is good practical advice for any sightreading situation: during that scan, find the highest and lowest notes in the piece to get an idea of what position you might read in, or whether you'll need to change positions. And you can also ID any tricky rhythms ahead of time too, as brent suggested.

[rpjazzguitar]

I can't imagine trying to read by thinking about intervals.

I learned the fretboard, by note-name, cold.

And, I learned the notes on the staff, cold.

Maybe thinking about intervals would work in the key of C with simple lines, but eventually you'll be in Db reading accidentals and it will get confusing, or so it seems to me. I haven't tried to do that by intervals so I don't really know.

As far as reading rhythms, first off, avoid triplets while you're learning. Everything else is ups and downs. You tap your foot, some notes are on ups and others on downs. Obvious for 8th notes - you tap on the quarter note. If you're playing 16ths then tap your foot on 8ths.

When I was learning I'd draw in arrows for which way my foot should be going for a particular note, or rest. I got that idea from Rhythms Complete by Colin/Bower. I think it's a great book to teach reading. I haven't used Leavitt.

You start in C, add some accidentals, then G or F and progress through the keys. Rhythms Complete does it that way.

And, you read everything as written and then an octave up.

Take away message: know the notes, know where they are and figure out the ups and downs. After you've mastered that, get back to us about triplets.

One other point. Fruit. Quarter notes are pear. Eighths are mango. Sixteenths are watermelon. Triplets can be banana. An 8th and two 16ths, blueberry with blue held long enough. That can work too.

[pawlowski6132]

I can't imagine trying to read by thinking about intervals.

I learned the fretboard, by note-name, cold.

And, I learned the notes on the staff, cold.

Maybe thinking about intervals would work in the key of C with simple lines, but eventually you'll be in Db reading accidentals and it will get confusing, or so it seems to me. I haven't tried to do that by intervals so I don't really know.

As far as reading rhythms, first off, avoid triplets while you're learning. Everything else is ups and downs. You tap your foot, some notes are on ups and others on downs. Obvious for 8th notes - you tap on the quarter note. If you're playing 16ths then tap your foot on 8ths.

When I was learning I'd draw in arrows for which way my foot should be going for a particular note, or rest. I got that idea from Rhythms Complete by Colin/Bower. I think it's a great book to teach reading. I haven't used Leavitt.

You start in C, add some accidentals, then G or F and progress through the keys. Rhythms Complete does it that way.

And, you read everything as written and then an octave up.

Take away message: know the notes, know where they are and figure out the ups and downs. After you've mastered that, get back to us about triplets.

One other point. Fruit. Quarter notes are pear. Eighths are mango. Sixteenths are watermelon. Triplets can be banana. An 8th and two 16ths, blueberry with blue held long enough. That can work too.

Reading music has nothing to do with intervals.

[pawlowski6132]

I'm 40, and I still can't read / sightread well. This has to change.

I got Leavitt's Modern Method and Bellson's Modern Reading to start. It's been a couple of days of reading, and it's been fun, challenging, and frustrating all at once.

With MM, I'm at page 25, and I go really slowly like maybe 55-60bpm. I notice that in almost every new piece, Leavitt throws in a curve ball line or arpeggio or chord that will throw you off if you're sightreading it immediately. It's been slightly annoying, so I've made it a point to take about a minute to scan the piece for those pesky bits and work them out quickly.

With MR, I'm at page 5 and I go at about 80bpm. I sightread the rhythms at one go. I'm quite bad at translating written rhythms into mental sounds in my head, so just to create a mini exercise for myself, I took a few of these one-bar rhythms, memorised and sang/tapped them for about 4-5 minutes. Sounds a bit dumb/slow of me, but I kinda need to hear the rhythm out loud or perform it kinesthetically to understand and connect with it.

I don't know if I'm doing this self-directed learning right. Want to learn, but don't know how to learn.

Advice welcome.

Why do you want to read music? What are you trying to do that you can't because you can't read music?

I pay my guitar teacher $75/hour and he can't read music. Is it really necessary for you?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I can see in theory the intervals thing could be really powerful, allowing you to transpose at sight easily, and map out the fretboard, but in practice I’ve always read absolute pitches and that’s how it is usually taught, rightly or wrongly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pawlowski6132]

Yeah I can see in theory the intervals thing could be really powerful, allowing you to transpose at sight easily, and map out the fretboard, but in practice I’ve always read absolute pitches and that’s how it is usually taught, rightly or wrongly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you mean you read absolute pitches?

[pawlowski6132]

Yeah I can see in theory the intervals thing could be really powerful, allowing you to transpose at sight easily, and map out the fretboard, but in practice I’ve always read absolute pitches and that’s how it is usually taught, rightly or wrongly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also how does understanding intervals help anybody transpose insight reading?

[Christian Miller]

Also how does understanding intervals help anybody transpose insight reading?

Reading intervallically, not understanding intervals.

Probably more like scale degrees. You don't read 'A E D C#' say, you read the key signature (3 sharps) say 'A' and then using the note A on the staff as your reference you read instead 1 5 4 3. Then you can transpose to any key instantly. Also it relates to the way the guitar is laid out with moveable shapes. So in theory could be a really powerful way to do it.

I don't do it that way - or at least I mostly don't - maybe it's just lack of practice. I don't know anyone who reads music that way.

That said, one guy I knew who could sight transpose piano music (worked with a lot of classical singers) said that he just thought of everything as being in C major. Same sort of thing, maybe.

It's also the way you have to read when sight singing if you don't have absolute (ie perfect) pitch.

[jazzyfan]

Reading music has nothing to do with intervals.

Exactly. The kind of idiotic misinformation on this site is unbelievable sometimes.
You simply have to learn the notes on the guitar "cold" and similarly on the staff.
There is no "secret" shortcut.
One thing I would recommend is training yourself to play an octave higher than the written notes.
Forget about playing in the open/first positions and just go straight to the 5th fret upwards.

[Christian Miller]

What do you mean you read absolute pitches?

C D E F G A B Db F# Gbb Dx etc

[Christian Miller]

One thing I would recommend is training yourself to play an octave higher than the written notes.

^ This is important.

Forget about playing in the open/first positions and just go straight to the 5th fret upwards.

My policy too. 5th fret is a nice 'middle position' of the guitar. You can extend up to the 12th fret, or go down to open position from there. I think it stops people from getting hang ups about the 'dusty end'

[pawlowski6132]

Reading intervallically, not understanding intervals.

Probably more like scale degrees. You don't read 'A E D C#' say, you read the key signature (3 sharps) say 'A' and then using the note A on the staff as your reference you read instead 1 5 4 3. Then you can transpose to any key instantly. Also it relates to the way the guitar is laid out with moveable shapes. So in theory could be a really powerful way to do it.

I don't do it that way - or at least I mostly don't - maybe it's just lack of practice. I don't know anyone who reads music that way.

That said, one guy I knew who could sight transpose piano music (worked with a lot of classical singers) said that he just thought of everything as being in C major. Same sort of thing, maybe.

It's also the way you have to read when sight singing if you don't have absolute (ie perfect) pitch.

Okay yeah I get it. That just seemed really complicated to read notes on a staff and transpose that way.

I think that's how we are transpose chord progressions from key to key.