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I am working on transcribing Days of Wine and Roses by Wes.
I have in F major but not really sure how to label the chords with the question marks. The single notes are just melody notes.
facea (FM7)
Eb d g a (?) - g - a
a eb g c (?)
a eb Ab D (?)
Eb Ab C
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08-30-2025 04:02 PM
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The names depend on the function but....
Eb d g a (?) = Eb^7b5, Cm6/9 (no root), or F13 (no root, 7th in bass).
a eb g c (?) = Am7b5 or Cm6.
a eb Ab D (?) = Maybe a product of voice leading? Ab & D are the 3rd/7th of Bb7 & E7
Eb Ab C = Ab triad
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Yeah, I wasn't sure what their function was. Maybe I will look at the chart for hints.
Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Which measures are those in the tune, and what recording are you transcribing? Originally Posted by charlieparker
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It's in the title. Days of Wine and Roses firon the beginning. I just looked at the chart and it had an Eb7 where you suggested EbM7#4. That was a bit of an odd substitution. Then it goes to Am7 which is fairly close to the next chord Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Wes played Ebmaj7#11
Mancini wrote Cm6/Eb iirc
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Yeah, I am finding that Wes just found some nice voice-leading and maybe didn't think in terms of chords. The d was the note I was a bit puzzled over but it's a diatonic note and gives a step wise movement from c to d in one of the inner voices. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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That chord is actually Eb Maj7 #11 (not min 7 b5) which is what Wes played in the chord-melody into in the recording. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Last edited by Tal_175; 08-31-2025 at 12:43 PM.
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So then we have....
Eb d g a (?) = Eb^7#11 - without the nat. 5th (Bb), which is why I called it a b5 chord.
a eb g c (?) = Am7b5
a eb Ab D (?) & Eb Ab C = D7alt voicings.
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I thought you called it minor 7 b5, no? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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That was the next chord: a eb g c (?) = Am7b5 Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Correct and yet neither chord is considered the default for that 2nd bar. I'm not sure when Eb7#11 became the accepted change. Pat Martino's version on Exit from the mid '70s already has a dominant chord. Perhaps he and many others consider the harmony as a prefiguration of its reappearance in bar 7. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Both bars 2 and 7 have a 'A' in the melody suggesting either Am7b5 (I hear Mancini's original as contextually more like an F9/Eb with no root), Ebmaj7#11 or Eb7#11. Many players (especially guitarists!) move up from the Gm7 in bars 5-6 to a Bbm7 but the 'Ab' in the chord clashes - Bbm6 is a better option which can then move to Eb7#11 in bar 8 and return via a backdoor cadence to the home key of F.
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Listening again, I now am pretty sure that it was an Am7, with E instead of Eb. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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No, it's definitely an Am7b5. Also, the first chord has no root and the 5th in the bass as does the Ebmaj7#11.
So it's Fmaj7/C (8x7555) moving to Ebmaj7#11/Bb (6x5785) followed by a standard root position 'drop 2' Am7b5 on the top set of strings at end of that bar (xx7888). The next two chords are interesting choices: a D9#11 with no 3rd (xx10.9.9.10) and D7b9#11 (xxx7898) again with no 3rd. The final chord before the move to Gm7 is a 2nd inversion rootless 'drop 2' D9 (xxx7978).
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Either way it's the IIm7 chord preceding the V7 (D7alt) or its b5 sub, Ab7. Originally Posted by charlieparker
Interesting, that first chord voicing is not one I ever play, but I'd think of it as augmented voicing (Ab aug.), and the next chord too, with it's Ab triad on top (b9th, A, in the bass - sure it's not a Bb? That's an ackward move). Originally Posted by PMB
A nice symmetrical chord pattern on the top 3 strings: 9-9-10 > 8-9-8 > 6-6-7 > 5-6-5 - etc., many possibilities for the bass line below it.Last edited by Mick-7; 08-31-2025 at 11:09 PM.
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It's an 'A' in the bass. That's quite a common shape, played more regularly as a 13b9 (in this case, with a 'B' in the bass) or as a #9 (with 'F' in the bass). Originally Posted by Mick-7
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You are right on the Am7b5. I was actually thinking about the chord after that which I originally had as xx789.10 which now I am hearing as xx7.9.9.10 which is different than your (xx10.9.9.10). As for the bass notes. I did hear the C and Bb on the bottom but I thought that was the organ player. Also, I am pretty sure I hear the F and Eb also after listening it over and over. Anyways, you probably have better ears than me on this. I find these dense chords a bit tricky, but I found the voices I found work good enough... Originally Posted by PMB
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The common voicings (fingerings) would be: Originally Posted by charlieparker
D9b5b9 | x-(9)-10-9-9-10 | > B13b9 | (7)-x-7-8-9-7 |
So its the common movement of diminished (dominant 7b9) chords moving in minor 3rds.
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When trying to understand and codify voicings played on a given recording it can be helpful to take note of some of the following:
!. Original chord changes
2. What the bassist played (in a general sense)
3. What the pianist played (in a general sense)
4. Guitar similar or different over multiple chorus
5. Same for other rhythm section instruments
6. Evaluating if a voicing is the main chord or a connector insertion
a eb Ab D (?)
this one is likely an F7 or B7 function
F13#9 (A Eb G# D)
or
B13#9 (A D# G# Cx)
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FWIW what I hear as the original changes for Days of Wine and roses are
Fmaj7 Cm6/Eb D7#11 D7 Gm
It’s very nice because you have the G-G#-A line on top
It’s nicer than the rumpty tumpty Real Book changes with the Fmaj7 Eb7#11 D7 yeuck. I mean it’s fine in other tunes it just doesn’t have the pathos you have in the original soundtrack recording which is a characteristic of the lyric.
I like the Wes sub as well. A little more impressionistic and less romantic. All of course have in common the fact that there’s a melodic A over the Eb bass, so all these chords are based on that interval.
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"It’s very nice because you have the G-G#-A line on top" Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And on to Bb (in the Gm chord) if you like. And you could play a descending counterpoint line of: F>E (F^7) > Eb (Am7b5) > D7, etc.
Re: Cm6/Eb > D7#11
Why not call the Cm6/Eb an Am7b5/Eb? Same notes and it is the IIm7 of the V7 (D7) that follows it. Am7b5 was not accepted chord nomenclature at the time?
The Real Book does tend to stick dominant 7th chords where they don't belong. Eb^7#11 makes sense, Eb7(#11) does not.
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I have no idea. My reason is Am7b5/Eb is longer and harder to parse than Cm6/Eb, also I'm a Barry Harris guy so I tend to prefer IV chords. I think some theorists regard the harmony on II as more fundamental than IV, but honestly I have no strong preference either way. Apparently the II chord lobby convinced Barry in the end, so who am I to dissent? Originally Posted by Mick-7
Am7b5 probably not in use pre Berkelee, Aø maybe. Not sure? Answers welcome. I know they have a thing against people saying half diminished. They can take it up with the classical theorists lol. That's a fight that no-one would tune into.
So maybe I should just write Aø/Eb bwahahaha. Come at me, Berklee bros.
Functionally it all works. It's a temporary modulation to the IIm. You can have an augmented (French) sixth there (Eb7(#11)) - So Eb7 D7 Gm. Like Bernie's Tune etc.The Real Book does tend to stick dominant 7th chords where they don't belong. Eb^7#11 makes sense, Eb7(#11) does not.
Or the subdominant of Gm (i.e. C or Cm6 - or Am7b5) - or Ebmaj7 for that matter, which itself could move to Cm6 or Eb7 or whatever. All these chords can handle the gig.
It's just a matter of the mood you are trying to create. Eb7 has more 'push' to it.
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Not trying to be a dick, but...how often have you ever encountered a maj7b5 chord, versus a maj7#11 chord? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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You're right, it is usually written maj7#11, but I often omit the natural 5th from the chord, so make that distinction. Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
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