Ear with live music vs. ear with recordings

[alez]

I notice a massive difference.

I'm talking about the changes.

When I'm at home trying to transcribe whatever tune I want to learn, it's very bad. Most times, after 2-3 hours of listening carefully to everything from single measures to whole sections, I give up in utter frustration and look at various music sheets. The ear does recognise the form AABA or whatever it is, but that doesn't count because the melody tells. Changes, only if very easy, such as "I goes to V and resolves back to I" or if I've played them a million times already, such as is this Montgomery-Ward bridge or something.

However, when I go to a jam session, generally I hear just alright. If the chord sequence is easy or one I've heard before, I notice instantly. If not, I'm able to figure it out because I hear the individual chords as they sound. I'm going to the easier jam sessions, the "traditional jazz" sort, but still.

So avoiding frustration means basically leaving the house and going to a jam session. Like I said, massive difference.

Possible explanation #1: difference in overall sound quality.

Possible explanation #2: the guys keep calling the easier tunes whereas at home I may be trying much more difficult ones unknowingly.

Do you experience or have experienced anything like that?? It's weird!

[AllanAllen]

I would guess that live, you can get it good enough or in the ballpark, the moment passes and it's gone. But at home you can clearly hear you are playing things wrong, taking the extra time to be careful and diligent.

What's the jam like? Are there more experienced players who know the tunes and give you any feedback? Or is it 5 guys with their heads in iReal counting beats?

[mr. beaumont]

Both of your explanations sound plausible. Trad jazz does tend to be pretty straightforward, and hearing things right in front of you is definitely a different experience. I find it easier to isolate parts when listening to live music (assuming the music is at a conversational level or mixed well, that is) because I can visually focus on the player...

To throw out 2 others--

1. playing with a group triggers the whole sink or swim thing with your ear. Your ear is choosing to swim.

2. There can be visual cues as well...another guitar player? Easy. But even seeing a bass player move around their fingerboard...

Probably a combination of a few things, but maybe the good type of problem to have!

[rpjazzguitar]

I've noticed that I'm much more likely to incorporate some new lick or chord sequence if I am exposed to it live.

I've also noticed that some recordings are easier to hear than others. Sometimes things seem very murky to me that other musicians can hear more clearly.

[pauln]

What are you using to listen to recordings at home?

[rpjazzguitar]

Varied over the years. Vinyl, CDs with speakers, more recently headphones or hearing aids with my phone playing mp3s. But, the problem hasn't changed much.

[emanresu]

Live jam type of performance should be more generic. Whatever "fun" people might have with the chords, do that too much and other players will start to frown.

When they record, they will rehearse those ... freedoms together, can have a lot more of that and gosh, they do.

[pamosmusic]

Live jam type of performance should be more generic. Whatever "fun" people might have with the chords, do that too much and other players will start to frown.

When they record, they will rehearse those ... freedoms together, can have a lot more of that and gosh, they do.

Not really my experience with that

[pamosmusic]

Though what are you trying to transcribe off the records, vs picking up live?

Im usually trying to grab entire intricate melodies off records but just trying to get the bassline live so I know the changes.

Important to remember that in addition to different settings hitting your ear differently, there are also many skills involved … hearing in the bass register is different than hearing up high, hearing a definite pitch instrument like guitar is different than a more variable pitch instrument like trumpet, transcribing rhythms is very different than just grabbing them by ear, hearing mostly diatonic chords is pretty easy while hearing chords that jump around more can be extraordinarily hard.

when you’re working on your ear, what are you working on?

[emanresu]

Not really my experience with that

What's yours?

I just went through a few unfamiliar tunes, recordings. Had the fancy thought to learn the harmony there, and no.
It is just so busy compared to vanilla. Just yesterday

[pamosmusic]

What's yours?

I just went through a few unfamiliar tunes, recordings. Had the fancy thought to learn the harmony there, and no.
It is just so busy compared to vanilla. Just yesterday

I guess my first thought is that jam sessions people don't tend to be particularly vanilla about things -- you get unskilled players less capable of other flavors, but that doesn't make hearing any easier. The weird time and clams can make things harder. A lot of intermediate players have a lot of colors at their disposal but don't always have the taste to use them in the right doses so you can get a lot of weird stuff floating around. And advanced players like to stretch.

But also on recordings -- they most definitely do not rehearse those out things -- at least not as a rule. Part of the reason they might be hard to hear is because agreement is not necessary and they're very good at it. You might even say the disagreement is part of what make it sound as good as it does. I just transcribed No. 1 Green St. and at the end of the third chorus Grant plays a C#dim over an F7 going to Bb. It's a standard turnaround thing, but can be hard to find with your ear if you don't know what to listen for because the notes themselves don't make sense over the chord in the background. But everyone has the same task in mind (get back to Bb) so the tension is awesome.

[AllanAllen]

Live jam type of performance should be more generic. Whatever "fun" people might have with the chords, do that too much and other players will start to frown.

When they record, they will rehearse those ... freedoms together, can have a lot more of that and gosh, they do.

Are you conflating playing Darn that Dream at Joe's Pub Jazz Jam with transcribing the Evans/Hall version?

These are entirely different skills.

[pamosmusic]

Are you conflating playing Darn that Dream at Joe's Pub Jazz Jam with transcribing the Evans/Hall version?

These are entirely different skills.

I will note that you're using "Joe's Pub" as a generic name for a local bar, but there is also a famous venue in the West Village called "Joe's Pub." Soooo....

[emanresu]

Are you conflating playing Darn that Dream at Joe's Pub Jazz Jam with transcribing the Evans/Hall version?

These are entirely different skills.

Hah. It was April in Paris, Ella and that what a wonderful world guy. when saw this topic here. The pianist just... goes around, everywhere.

[pamosmusic]

Hah. It was April in Paris, Ella and that what a wonderful world guy. when saw this topic here. The pianist just... goes around, everywhere.

Oscar Peterson

He kind of just plays all over that recording. He’s OP so he sounds awesome doing it and it suits, but not really an example of typical accompaniment and almost certainly not worked out in advance with Ella and Louis.

[AllanAllen]

Hah. It was April in Paris, Ella and that what a wonderful world guy. when saw this topic here. The pianist just... goes around, everywhere.

Well, first off, don't disrespect Pops like that, you wouldn't be doing any of this without the musical world Louis Armstrong gave us. Secondly, "the pianist" is Oscar Peterson, one of the most technically skilled players who ever lived, so yeah, he's gonna get you twisted up. He's also cited as the most overplaying over player there ever was. I personally think he's a excellent and able to toe the line of playing too much and swinging his ass off.

[emanresu]

Well, first off, don't disrespect Pops like that, you wouldn't be doing any of this without the musical world Louis Armstrong gave us. Secondly, "the pianist" is Oscar Peterson, one of the most technically skilled players who ever lived, so yeah, he's gonna get you twisted up. He's also cited as the most overplaying over player there ever was. I personally think he's a excellent and able to toe the line of playing too much and swinging his ass off.

I broke the rule of "never do a joke in the Internet". And the kickback happened instantly.

Btw, I wasn't bitching about the player or complaining. Just that it is not worth the time to learn a song in that way. By ear, listening to a busy comp.

[pamosmusic]

I broke the rule of "never do a joke in the Internet". And the kickback happened instantly.

Btw, I wasn't bitching about the player or complaining. Just that it is not worth the time to learn a song in that way. By ear, listening to a busy comp.

You're listening to wrong person.

Ray Brown and Herb Ellis.

[AllanAllen]

I broke the rule of "never do a joke in the Internet". And the kickback happened instantly.

Btw, I wasn't bitching about the player or complaining. Just that it is not worth the time to learn a song in that way. By ear, listening to a busy comp.

Egg on my face I guess.

When you learn a song by ear, you want to be mindful of who you are learning it from. Knowing the players and their style is an important part of this. Oscar Peterson is not where anyone should start when trying to learn the changes of a song. In guitar terms, it's like trying to learn a song using Pasquale Grasso's version.

[alez]

Thank you for your comments. Plenty to think about in them.

I would guess that live, you can get it good enough or in the ballpark, the moment passes and it's gone. But at home you can clearly hear you are playing things wrong, taking the extra time to be careful and diligent.

Strangely, pretty much the opposite. In jam sessions, the changes are played multiple choruses, so I get to double check and triple check too. Each chorus I double check what I heard previously and try to hear more, and it works. For example, one chorus I may notice it goes to IV via I7 then back to I, the next I'm able to tell whether it's back to I via IVm or via IV#dim.

Also when I'm playing and my playing is not consonant because I got whatever chord(s) wrong, I notice it much more clearly than at home, it sort of hits me in the face.

What's the jam like? Are there more experienced players who know the tunes and give you any feedback? Or is it 5 guys with their heads in iReal counting beats?

Well seasoned players with rarely any sheets or iReal on sight. If anything, a quick check of whatever before the playing takes place. They play the simple stuff like dixieland and traditional jazz, but very solidly. It's their thing.

1. playing with a group triggers the whole sink or swim thing with your ear. Your ear is choosing to swim.

I found my mindset is key. In jam sessions, I only hear well (as described above) when I feel good, relaxed with no panic associated to measuring up, etc. Otherwise it's gone. Lately I identify my own state of mind and only play when I'm relaxed. Otherwise my playing is very poor and go home feeling bad.

2. There can be visual cues as well...another guitar player? Easy. But even seeing a bass player move around their fingerboard...

Not me, I play trumpet and I obtain no information whatsoever from my eyes.

Probably a combination of a few things, but maybe the good type of problem to have!

I think you're right, it must be that.

I've noticed that I'm much more likely to incorporate some new lick or chord sequence if I am exposed to it live.

I've also noticed that some recordings are easier to hear than others. Sometimes things seem very murky to me that other musicians can hear more clearly.

Me too both things. Albums have changed dramatically over the years, too. It's many decades since the term "recording" doesn't really describe what an album is.

What are you using to listen to recordings at home?

I load the tune in a wave editor so I can see the sound, select sections for loop playback, etc. I play that through a good audio interface either on good headphones or average hi-fi and speakers. The result is bad either way. I struggle to differentiate the different sounds present. I think it's probably more to do with the audio information than the audio equipment.

[rpjazzguitar]

The thing I find most challenging is getting chord voicings off murky sounding records. And second most challenging is getting chord voicings over good sounding records.

I'm not currently playing in any situations where the pianist is likely to take the harmony into outer space, so there's that.

[Mick-7]

The thing I find most challenging is getting chord voicings off murky sounding records. And second most challenging is getting chord voicings off good sounding records.

I always start with the bass line, usually helps a lot. Bass players tend to outline the chord tones - at least mainstream players, some of these modern bassists seem to think of themselves as back up improvisors.... "Hmm, is that a slash chord? It wasn't before that bass player got a hold of it!"

[alez]

I'm not currently playing in any situations where the pianist is likely to take the harmony into outer space, so there's that.

Having the freedom to choose not to play is good. When I go to jam sessions, I learn plenty enough from immersion and listening so, whether I play or not, it's always well worth my subway return ticket.

[alez]

I always start with the bass line, usually helps a lot. Bass players tend to outline the chord tones - at least mainstream players, some of these modern bassists seem to think of themselves as back up improvisors.... "Hmm, is that a slash chord? It wasn't before that bass player got a hold of it!"

I totally do the same. I find it very frustrating when I can't hum the bass line because I can't hear it well.