Sight reading tricky chart

[garybaldy]

This was a tricky one for me last night, especially the quick changes and syncopation at the beginning. Sorry it's on its' side!

[Mick-7]

This was a tricky one for me last night, especially the quick changes and syncopation at the beginning. Sorry it's on its' side!

Slow torture by banjo rhythms.

[garybaldy]

Slow torture by banjo rhythms.

I was a little careless the other day. Going to a gig with my banjo on the back sit of the car. Had to quickly pop into a shop. Thought the banjo would be ok for a couple of minutes with the car locked. Walking back to the car, to my horror, I saw the back window was smashed. When I got closer I realised two more banjos had been thrown in!

[Ukena]

Yikes!

[garybaldy]

Yikes!

Thank you.
We're all together with the rhythm at the start. It's got to be easier for the single note blowers!

[Christian Miller]

Bar 5 is confusingly written


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[garybaldy]

Bar 5 is confusingly written


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Yes. I'd rather see tied quavers in the middle.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yikes!

Illustrates a few wrinkles. For one, when handwritten charts were the thing, the notation was less standardized. So, the first thing you have to do is acclimate to the way the rhythms are written on the staff.

The syncopation is typical in the following way. Arrangers want to be original and they express that originality by writing rhythms that are different. So, it's not usually going to be familiar. That said, a lot of the bars look like tresillo which is one rhythm that occurs frequently enough that you want to be able to see it as a chunk and not three individual notes.

Is that half note = 126? Cut time. So, if it was 4/4, that would be 252? I find cut time confusing. So do, sometimes, the other musicians, including whoever is counting it off. In any case the chords are going by quickly. The horns have the extensions, but even playing fragments like 3s and 7s can be challenging if you have to read it cold at full speed.

All that said, this is typical of the genre. Good luck!

[Mick-7]

I was a little careless the other day. Going to a gig with my banjo on the back sit of the car. Had to quickly pop into a shop. Thought the banjo would be ok for a couple of minutes with the car locked. Walking back to the car, to my horror, I saw the back window was smashed. When I got closer I realized two more banjos had been thrown in!

That's sick, if they catch the guy, they should add a terrorism charge!

Yes. I'd rather see tied quavers in the middle.

Bound and gagged would be my preference.

[garybaldy]

Illustrates a few wrinkles. For one, when handwritten charts were the thing, the notation was less standardized. So, the first thing you have to do is acclimate to the way the rhythms are written on the staff.

The syncopation is typical in the following way. Arrangers want to be original and they express that originality by writing rhythms that are different. So, it's not usually going to be familiar. That said, a lot of the bars look like tresillo which is one rhythm that occurs frequently enough that you want to be able to see it as a chunk and not three individual notes.

Is that half note = 126? Cut time. So, if it was 4/4, that would be 252? I find cut time confusing. So do, sometimes, the other musicians, including whoever is counting it off. In any case the chords are going by quickly. The horns have the extensions, but even playing fragments like 3s and 7s can be challenging if you have to read it cold at full speed.

All that said, this is typical of the genre. Good luck!

We have about 250 20s/30s charts. Some are pretty straight forward and others a little challenging. Four straight quarter note chord changes in a bar can be tricky. I'm getting used to eg. Bb Bb7 Bbdim Ebm6 and Eb B7 Fm7 Bb7 etc. It's great fun but more gigs would be nice. Makes a nice change from buskers but some of the arrangements have the opportunity for repeat choruses for solos. BTW I'm on guitar not banjo!

[AllanAllen]

Listening to this, you have to wonder if the arranger even listened to what the guitar did. That's four to the bar Freddie Green comping all the way.

Lazy arrangers have syncopated the swing out of swing bands.

[rpjazzguitar]

Let's break this down a little to make it easier.

Opening chord sequence is Bm7b5 E9 Cm7b5 F9 C#m7b5 F#9 Dm7 G7#5#9.

First thing to make it simpler is to assume that the horns are playing the alterations and that nobody is going to complain if the guitar doesn't.

Take Bm7b5. The bass has the B. That leaves b3 b5 and b7, which are D F and A. Since we're thinking the horns have the alterations, the guitar has the D and A. Suppose you play them xx77xx. Let's suppose that nobody complains.

Next up, less than a half-second later, is E9. Bass gets E, horns get F#. Guitar takes the 3 and 7, which are G# and D. Suppose we play them xx67xx. The B note is heard either because somebody is actually playing it or as an overtone of the root. Once again, I'm not expecting complaints.

Then you make the same moves a fret higher for the Cm7b5 and, then, another fret higher for the C#m7b5.

The next one is also a fret higher. There's no b5 in the Dm7 chord, but you weren't going to play a 5th anyway. And, when it goes to that G7(#this#that) you're still on 3s and 7s. So as a practical matter it's the same exact move on the same two strings.

In fact, a lot of this chart is half step moves.

Now, if you can actually play more of the chords, like the 5s and 9s, it will sound good, but it will also sound good if you don't.

The point is that the line is physically easy to play -- once you've figured out which notes to use.

[garybaldy]

Let's break this down a little to make it easier.

Opening chord sequence is Bm7b5 E9 Cm7b5 F9 C#m7b5 F#9 Dm7 G7#5#9.

First thing to make it simpler is to assume that the horns are playing the alterations and that nobody is going to complain if the guitar doesn't.

Take Bm7b5. The bass has the B. That leaves b3 b5 and b7, which are D F and A. Since we're thinking the horns have the alterations, the guitar has the D and A. Suppose you play them xx77xx. Let's suppose that nobody complains.

Next up, less than a half-second later, is E9. Bass gets E, horns get F#. Guitar takes the 3 and 7, which are G# and D. Suppose we play them xx67xx. The B note is heard either because somebody is actually playing it or as an overtone of the root. Once again, I'm not expecting complaints.

Then you make the same moves a fret higher for the Cm7b5 and, then, another fret higher for the C#m7b5.

The next one is also a fret higher. There's no b5 in the Dm7 chord, but you weren't going to play a 5th anyway. And, when it goes to that G7(#this#that) you're still on 3s and 7s. So as a practical matter it's the same exact move on the same two strings.

In fact, a lot of this chart is half step moves.

Now, if you can actually play more of the chords, like the 5s and 9s, it will sound good, but it will also sound good if you don't.

The point is that the line is physically easy to play -- once you've figured out which notes to use.

Yeah, not so tricky if you have a chance to break it down.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah, not so tricky if you have a chance to break it down.

My experience with big band type playing includes being a member of three and having sat in with three others.

In every case, somebody calls a number, you get the chart out of the book, put it on the stand and the leader counts it off at full tempo. The band plays it as well as it can and almost always moves right on to the next one. Now and then, the leader will suggest going over a part, but never for the rhythm section. Always for the horns, often without the rhythm section playing. I can't recall ever having had an opportunity to play the whole song at a significantly reduced tempo.

So, the job is sightreading exactly this sort of thing with no preparation and no time to think.

The pianist has everything the guitarist has plus the left hand. And, the pianists, in my experience, can usually do it.

And, if there is a moment to think, here's about all I can get done.

1. Do I have the right chart?
2. Do I have all the pages?
3. Are they all unfolded properly?
4. Is the chart in treble clef?
5. Is there a guitar solo?
6. Can I read the rhythm at the beginning of the tune?
7. Here's one I should think about but I don't: can I read the ending? (the endings are usually different).
8. What key and does the key change?
9. Can I follow the roadmap? (this one should be higher up)

There's more, but you usually don't even have time for this much.

[AllanAllen]

The point is that the line is physically easy to play -- once you've figured out which notes to use.

The ones I have time to work out at home, there’s an “aha” moment where I get the right inversions and it’s all in a line.

I think it would be easier if they just wrote out the voice leading they want.

[bluenote61]

I think it would be easier if they just wrote out the voice leading they want.

You're right, but usually the arrangements are made by pianists or horn players. Both have usually no clue about what the guitarist is playing.
In my current bigband book with around 200 tunes I have 2 arrangements with written out voicings in the guitar chart which are playable and sounding well.

[AllanAllen]

The one chart we have with written arrangements are piano/Johnny Smith voicings that are impossible to play 4 grips to a bar.

[rpjazzguitar]

The horns all have their parts written out. They're told exactly what to play by the arranger.

But, the guitarist is usually looking at quarter note slash marks.

The slash marks don't mean to play quarters Freddie style, although you might. Rather, they mean, "comp appropriately".

So, in addition to everything else, you actually have to make up your part. And, it has to work well with whatever the pianist is doing, among other issues.

[AllanAllen]

The horns all have their parts written out. They're told exactly what to play by the arranger.

But, the guitarist is usually looking at quarter note slash marks.

The slash marks don't mean to play quarters Freddie style, although you might. Rather, they mean, "comp appropriately".

So, in addition to everything else, you actually have to make up your part. And, it has to work well with whatever the pianist is doing, among other issues.

Learning this completely changed the big band game for me.

[rpjazzguitar]

Learning this completely changed the big band game for me.

So I don't mislead you, this is what I was told by one arranger when I asked what he meant by slash marks. Chatgpt agrees. I don't know if other arrangers would agree -- I've never asked.

Maybe somebody will chime in with more info. I do know that nobody ever complains whether I'm playing quarters or not.

When there's a pianist, you have to avoid conflict. Freddie style is an excellent way to do that for swing music.

But, suppose there isn't a pianist. Does Freddie style still make the most sense? It might. But, you might be able to do better, perhaps playing more propulsively some other way. I find it more fun to play when there's no piano.

Another point is that Freddie moved constantly. It's not so easy to do. You have to have all those voicings readily available. His sound often involved pressing down hard on one string -- while pressing lightly on two (usually) others -- to get a combination of sounded-note and pitched-thud. And, then, his kind of archtop to complete the sonic picture.

[AllanAllen]

The pianist in my band told me it meant to comp appropriately a few months ago. You only reinforced him. He said the bass will be hitting rhythm with the drums and that should be enough for everyone to keep time.

I started comping with/against him and the vibraphone. So far nobody has complained. It's also a lot funner to play with the band instead of with the sheet.

[bluenote61]

The pianist in my band told me it meant to comp appropriately a few months ago.

That’s also my understanding. If FG-style is asked explicitly, it is normally noted on the chart at the beginning of the notation "play in 4ths" or something like that.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've never seen Freddie (or 4 chords to the bar) asked for specifically iirc, but I have seen one chart which had a note "Not F.G.".

That struck me as remarkable. One guitarist or guitar style, so influential that you have to be told specifically not to play like that!

[Christian Miller]

It’s all licks…


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[Reg]

yea... Keeping up with tempo and not having to watch your fretboard while playing can be tough. But at least the form and feel are standard. It gets worse ..LOL

At least the form is constant and sections are Marked... even with lousy bar division on page.... but is just just one page.

If its a gig... get the road map right, then harmonic targets. Looks pretty old school typical... and like Christian said, standard licks...