Do you constantly hear music playing in your head?

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 05:15 AM

Vihar, you're back!

From the article:

'We must abstain from conscious mental activity'.

Okay, but you see what's wrong with that? You can't consciously abstain from conscious mental activity. A person who knows they're meditating, isn't. A person who is consciously aware that there's no conscious mental activity is very much conscious, so it's nonsense.

If we once realise that the meditative state isn't something to be manufactured then any effort or directed activity to make it happen is obviously the very denial of it.

The meditative state is something that happens involuntarily. It can happen when we wake up from sleep, when we're walking along, sitting in a car, anything you like. The mischief begins when we try to make it happen; the very effort prevents it.

That's why I'm saying that all these people who propagate ways to induce meditation are phoney. It's just something to sell, to profit from, and the gullible fall for it.

You may say so what, it doesn't matter, there's no harm in it. But there's a great deal of harm in it, as with any kind of exploitation.

I know this is a music site but it's probably still worthwhile to thrash these things out. Not many people have got this stuff clear in their heads.

**Vihar** · 01-23-2023, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

You can't consciously abstain from conscious mental activity. A person who knows they're meditating, isn't. A person who is consciously aware that there's no conscious mental activity is very much conscious, so it's nonsense.

These are false premises.

The mental state of having ONLY a passive awareness present is vastly different from heightened (or even average) mental activity.

You are trying to logically disprove the existence of something very obviously real.

The brain activity during meditation is even different from simple relaxation: Short-term meditation modulates brain activity of insight evoked with solution cue | Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience | Oxford Academic

**GuyBoden** · 01-23-2023, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Vihar, you're back!

From the article:

Okay, but you see what's wrong with that? You can't consciously abstain from conscious mental activity. A person who knows they're meditating, isn't. A person who is consciously aware that there's no conscious mental activity is very much conscious, so it's nonsense.

If we once realise that the meditative state isn't something to be manufactured then any effort or directed activity to make it happen is obviously the very denial of it.

The meditative state is something that happens involuntarily. It can happen when we wake up from sleep, when we're walking along, sitting in a car, anything you like. The mischief begins when we try to make it happen; the very effort prevents it.

That's why I'm saying that all these people who propagate ways to induce meditation are phoney. It's just something to sell, to profit from, and the gullible fall for it.

You may say so what, it doesn't matter, there's no harm in it. But there's a great deal of harm in it, as with any kind of exploitation.

I know this is a music site but it's probably still worthwhile to thrash these things out. Not many people have got this stuff clear in their heads.

Just sit and concentrate on your breathing, don't do anything to alter the way you breath, don't worry about whether you're doing it right or wrong, don't even think about breathing, just follow your breathing in and then out.

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

The mental state of having ONLY a passive awareness present is vastly different from heightened (or even average) mental activity.

Yes, absolutely, but the issue here is whether such a state can be artificially manufactured through some method or other. I say it can't. The person who is conscious of just being passively aware is still there, still active; there's still mental activity going on.

You are trying to logically disprove the existence of something very obviously real.

No, I'm not. These states of meditation have been tested scientifically, as your link says. I know, such states are real. But I question completely if that's what I'm talking about. It's quite a big subject. I'm certainly not talking about simple relaxation, it's something far more important than that.

I found your link rather technical. Here's a simpler one!

12 science-based benefits of meditation - Hunimed

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

Just sit and concentrate on your breathing, don't do anything to alter the way you breath, don't worry about whether you're doing it right or wrong, don't even think about breathing, just follow your breathing in and then out.

Why?

I'm not being difficult, but why? Why does a person need to sit watching their breathing and all that? A nice walk in the country's much more fun!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-23-2023, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Why?

I'm not being difficult, but why? Why does a person need to sit watching their breathing and all that? A nice walk in the country's much more fun!

A nice walk in the country is great, but it's not meditating. A nice walk in the country will have all sorts of lovely stimuli, sights, sounds, even smells.

The goal of meditation (or one, at least) is to clear your mind of stimuli.

There's great benefits to both.

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

A nice walk in the country is great, but it's not meditating

Absolutely, but neither is 'watching your breathing' and that's the point. But one can find oneself meditating walking in the country. It's not that walking in the country is the same as meditation!

The goal of meditation (or one, at least) is to clear your mind of stimuli.

To what end?

You see how all these ideas of meditation have an end in view? They all promise some sort of beneficial result and one goes gleefully in to get it. And the result, inevitably, depends on the method used. You use green paint on a door, you get a green door, it's not rocket science. But the whole point of meditation, at least what I'm trying to explain, is that there's no end result. The beauty of it is in itself, not what one hopes to get from it.

**DawgBone** · 01-23-2023, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Why?

I'm not being difficult, but why? Why does a person need to sit watching their breathing and all that? A nice walk in the country's much more fun!

You are being difficult. Your claim that it isn't actually meditation but some jedi mind trick does not negate thousands of years of human history and practice. So please stop speaking like you are some authority on the subject. Meditation is more than just sitting there watching your breathing and thinking about nothing. Your understanding of what it is is an oversimplification. It has numerous forms, numerous techniques, and is tied in different ways to numerous religious practices.

Why does a person meditate? Some people are seeking peace with themselves or with God. Others are trying to de-clutter their minds from thoughts that distract them from accomplishing their goals or intrusive negative ideas that prevent them from communing with the Lord. Others want to shut off their inner dialogue and have inner quiet altogether. LIke I said, there are numerous methods and reasons. To say a walk in the country is so much better is kind of disrespectful. I love a walk in the country but I also gain benefit from meditation. Why ought I not do both?

**mr. beaumont** · 01-23-2023, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Absolutely, but neither is 'watching your breathing' and that's the point. But one can find oneself meditating walking in the country. It's not that walking in the country is the same as meditation!

To what end?

You see how all these ideas of meditation have an end in view? They all promise some sort of beneficial result and one goes gleefully in to get it. And the result, inevitably, depends on the method used. You use green paint on a door, you get a green door, it's not rocket science. But the whole point of meditation, at least what I'm trying to explain, is that there's no end result. The beauty of it is in itself, not what one hopes to get from it.

Focusing solely on breathing is one of the easiest ways to clear your mind and get into a meditative state.

I don't see anywhere where people are saying there's some sort of "end" in mind for meditation. Exactly as you said, it's process. The journey is the destination.

But I will tell ya, 2 minutes of guided breathing and I can lower my pulse by 10-15bpm. That's something concrete!

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

You are being difficult. Your claim that it isn't actually meditation but some jedi mind trick does not negate thousands of years of human history and practice.

It sounds like you're too angry to think clearly. The various methods aren't 'Jedi mind tricks', they're simply a way to quieten the mind by repetition, breathing, and all the rest of it. And they do quieten the mind. But that quietness is the result of the method. It's induced and therefore very shallow and its effects don't last, you have to keep repeating the dose. And none of that is meditation by whatever name.

When you say 'thousands of years of human history and practice' you're repeating the same fallacy as before. People have been doing the same stupid, destructive things for literally thousands of years and that length of time doesn't make them good or right.

So please stop speaking like you are some authority on the subject.

Why? I'm saying something logical and true. I'm not claiming any authority or telling anyone what they should do, I'm just pointing something out.

Meditation is more than just sitting there watching your breathing and thinking about nothing.

Quite right. Now you are the authority!

It has numerous forms, numerous techniques, and is tied in different ways to numerous religious practices.

I know. But so what? They may have been making the same mistake for thousands of years. After all, we've been living wrongly for thousands of years as well. Greed, power, wars, killing... Are they all right because of the amount of time they've been in existence?

Why does a person meditate?

That's the question I would ask too, and I have asked it. Obviously because they get something from it.

Some people are seeking peace with themselves or with God. Others are trying to de-clutter their minds from thoughts that distract them from accomplishing their goals or intrusive negative ideas that prevent them from communing with the Lord. Others want to shut off their inner dialogue and have inner quiet altogether. Like I said, there are numerous methods and reasons.

Exactly. They want something so they go after it, just like they go after power, money, position, importance. And that's not meditation.

To say a walk in the country is so much better is kind of disrespectful.

I didn't say that, I said a nice walk in the country was much more fun that sitting there watching your breathing or you big toe, or whatever it is. In any case, we usually go for walks in the country because it's a nice thing to do. We (usually) don't go with a motive of achieving some kind of inner peace or something. Any peace there is comes with the territory. That has nothing to do with the motives that make one take up practicing some kind of technique because it's trendy or because we live stressed-out lives.

I love a walk in the country but I also gain benefit from meditation. Why ought I not do both?

Why not indeed?

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't see anywhere where people are saying there's some sort of "end" in mind for meditation

Er... well, you have!

Focusing solely on breathing is one of the easiest ways to clear your mind and get into a meditative state.

You do one thing to get another. The breathing's a means to an end.

But can you 'get into' a meditative state? Haven't you ever suddenly felt happy, inexplicably joyful, for no reason at all? You must have, it just happens. We don't invite it and when it's gone, it's gone. The meditative state is like that, it just happens.

I know people won't like this because they like to be active, achieving things, getting somewhere. So their meditation is something they do to achieve something, be it peace, tranquillity, or a crazy mystical experience. It's like taking a drug, no?

But I will tell ya, 2 minutes of guided breathing and I can lower my pulse by 10-15bpm. That's something concrete!

It certainly is!

**mr. beaumont** · 01-23-2023, 11:56 AM

Why are you being intentionally obtuse about meditation? There's all different kinds. Some take a minute. It's still meditation.

Try 2 minutes of box breathing. Nothing mystical about it-- Navy SEALS use it

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Why are you being intentionally obtuse about meditation?

Well, I didn't really start it. You'd have to go back to page 1. But I do think these methods aren't what they appear.

Try 2 minutes of box breathing. Nothing mystical about it-- Navy SEALS use it

Presumably the SEALS use it because fighting wars is stressful... which I'm sure makes them into even more deadly killing machines. Lovely :-)

But deep breathing is certainly good for one, no question about that.

(takes a huge breath)

**Vihar** · 01-23-2023, 12:38 PM

The focus of meditation can be anything, from focus on your breathing to fixing your gaze on an object, or focusing on a piece of music playing in your head. I naturally did that from as early as I can remember, often humming the melodies out loud. It's kind of similar to chanting mantras. Many people have success with mentally going through their body parts and focusing on each one of them, also with fully focusing on the everyday activities like eating, walking, cooking, etc. As GuyBoden hinted at it, it's not supposed to be a forceful thing of deliberately trying not to think of anything, more like trying to observe those emerging thoughts from a distance, until they fade.

**Christian Miller** · 01-23-2023, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Why are you being intentionally obtuse...?

This what I've been wondering about rag for about ten years

I've got used to it haha

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

This what I've been wondering about rag for about ten years

I've got used to it haha

Anyone who questions the status quo is obtuse. It's my saving grace, you know :-)

**Christian Miller** · 01-23-2023, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Anyone who questions the status quo is obtuse. It's my saving grace, you know :-)

Sure, why not?

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 01:40 PM

Well, I could tell you...

By the way, do you think it's all right to play melodic minor over diminished chords?

**DawgBone** · 01-23-2023, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

The fact is that any emphasis on the self is destructive. When we pursue any form of achievement obviously the self is strengthened, consolidated. It doesn't dissipate, it grows more and more potent which brings its own problems. It's that which is our real problem but whether we see it is another matter.

You posts seem to say that you think you know the motivations of the heart of another person with regards to their intentions and reasons for choosing to meditate. But you don't know those motivations. Do you consider that some may enter prayer and meditation for others, in selflessness, when they could be taking a country walk for their own enjoyment? Not every deed done by men is for the self and with "getting/obtaining something" in mind. Have you ever helped the homeless or gave someone a hand carrying something? Held the door for a stranger? Held your tongue when someone shouted something mean? Not everyone does it so they can scream "Look how polite I am". So it is the same with prayer and meditation.

**Vihar** · 01-23-2023, 04:07 PM

I wonder what problems one can find with a strong sense of self. It's one of the biggest misinterpretations of Buddhism and meditation, that they try to eliminate the self for good and that it's a good thing.

Psychology calls it attitude strength and a strong one is part of a stable personality, which is usually on the other end of that of criminals.

**ragman1** · 01-23-2023, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by DawgBone

You posts seem to say that you think you know the motivations of the heart of another person with regards to their intentions and reasons for choosing to meditate. But you don't know those motivations. Do you consider that some may enter prayer and meditation for others, in selflessness, when they could be taking a country walk for their own enjoyment? Not every deed done by men is for the self and with "getting/obtaining something" in mind. Have you ever helped the homeless or gave someone a hand carrying something? Held the door for a stranger? Held your tongue when someone shouted something mean? Not everyone does it so they can scream "Look how polite I am".

This much is true.

So it is the same with prayer and meditation.

This is not because the processes and the effects are the same regardless.

**Christian Miller** · 01-23-2023, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, I could tell you...

By the way, do you think it's all right to play melodic minor over diminished chords?

This is between you and the jazz police - and snitches get stitches.

**ragman1** · 01-24-2023, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

I wonder what problems one can find with a strong sense of self. It's one of the biggest misinterpretations of Buddhism and meditation, that they try to eliminate the self for good and that it's a good thing.

I'm not a Buddhist so I don't know what meaning they give to the word self. I've just looked it up and it looks far too complicated. All we know is that selfishness is harmful and non-selfishness, as goodness, love, generosity, compassion, and so on, is not. Either we live a selfish life or we don't.

It's not a question of getting rid of something. I suspect the idea of getting rid of something is part of the thinking of the achievers. If you get rid of X you will become Y! So they struggle to get rid of their selfishness so they can become something else... not seeing that it's still selfishness because they want to become something other than they are. There's no better self, there's just self or no self.

**Greywolf** · 01-24-2023, 08:15 AM

I've been a musician for 62 years , a luthier for 40 ..music isn't just in my head it is in every cell of my body.

I remember back in college days I'd paint houses during the summer , one day a client asked why I didn't have a "boom box" or something while I worked ... I told her "music is always playing in my head" ... she asked me if it was distracting... I laughed and told her it would be a very boring and lonely place with out it.

I've also practiced Zen for over 50 years... and apart from the standard conception ... Mediation can take many forms and Music is one, building instruments is another. I always teach my music students about the "sanctity of the note" , to me that is the essence of why you can identify the Masters in a note or two ...

I can't imagine every trying to get rid of music by any means , it is my life.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-24-2023, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Greywolf

Mediation can take many forms and Music is one, building instruments is another. I always teach my music students about the "sanctity of the note" , to me that is the essence of why you can identify the Masters in a note or two ....

One of my favorite forms of musical meditation is to put on a drone and just play a note or two against it, focusing on just making a beautiful sound.

I have a tanpura app on my phone that's just perfect for this.

It's also wonderful for non-meditative practice of scales and modes. You can really hear the sound of a particular scale when it's placed against a drone...but that's a different conversation for a different day.