Extensions on secondary dominants

[gersdal]

I was looking at Don Mock’s DVD Jazz Guitar Rhythm Chops again yesterday, and one thing struck me as peculiar. In a standard jazz blues progression…
| G7 | C7 | G7 | G7 | C7 | C7 | G7 | E7 | A7 | D7 | G7 E7 | A7 D7 |
… he explains that the first E7 is a secondary dominant, and since it is a secondary dominant you can’t put any kind of extensions on it. Altered extensions are good, but straight 9, 11 and 13 are no-no.

This is interesting information, but when he continues to the A7 chord he explains that you can do whatever you want with that. But, the A7 is also a secondary dominant! Why is this rule only applicable for some secondary dominants? Is this because the A7 could have been an Am7, and that dictates the extensions to the secondary dominant? The secondary dominant for D7 will always go to a dominant seven, off course.

I’ve played around with various versions of extensions to the E7 and A7, and I think I have convinced myself with that Don Mock has got a good point, but does anyone have anything sound basis for this difference?

I think I remember that the Berkeley cord-scale book has got something on scales for the various secondary dominants, but I don't know if that has any relevance for this question.

This is a very good DVD btw … the pdf for the DVD is here for anyone interested: http://www.donmockguitar.com/pdf/Jaz...hythmChops.pdf

[mr. beaumont]

hmmm...wish I had a guitar or a piano here with me...I will say this, In that kind of blues, I'm pretty sure I'm almost always grabbing a b9 there...

[gersdal]

hmmm...wish I had a guitar or a piano here with me...I will say this, In that kind of blues, I'm pretty sure I'm almost always grabbing a b9 there...

The standard E7#9 - A13 - D7#9 - G13 is something I also grab every now and then, but E7b9 - Am7 - D7b9 - G7 is also great.

But the question remains - Why only altered on the secondary subdominant E7, but all options open on the secondary dominant A7?

[mr. beaumont]

i need to sit down and work it out. My goal tonight is to make an extended but unaltered dominant fit.

[derek]

This is a very good DVD btw … the pdf for the DVD is here for anyone interested: http://www.donmockguitar.com/pdf/Jaz...hythmChops.pdf

I agree, and I regularly recommend it for beginners. He shows you everything from great, usable chord voicings, to rhythm patterns. Don has a great approach about him, so you almost feel like you are in the room with him.

[gersdal]

I agree, and I regularly recommend it for beginners.

You should recommend it for intermediate players also! Or maybe I'm still a beginner I found it helpful anyway .

[fep]

He Gersdal,

I remember on that DVD Don Mock said something like... The E7 is a secondary dominant of the ii chord which is expected to be a minor. Since the ii chord is expected to be a minor E7alt will work well but E9 or E13 won't.

The A7 is a secondary dominant of the V chord (the D7) which isn't a minor chord so the A9 and A13 works just fine.

That's what I'm remembering. I'll take another look at that DVD this week.

On the other hand, Bill Thrasher (a guitar teacher) use to tell me that the words never and always don't apply to music.

[derek]

You should recommend it for intermediate players also! Or maybe I'm still a beginner I found it helpful anyway .

I meant beginners to jazz. Intermediate rock/blues guys get what they need to jump to jazz, chordally anyway, with this vid.

[gersdal]

He Gersdal,

I remember on that DVD Don Mock said something like... The E7 is a secondary dominant of the ii chord which is expected to be a minor. Since the ii chord is expected to be a minor E7alt will work well but E9 or E13 won't.

The A7 is a secondary dominant of the V chord (the D7) which isn't a minor chord so the A9 and A13 works just fine.

That's what I'm remembering. I'll take another look at that DVD this week.

Thanks. Your memory must be good. That sounds very much like I remember, but I don't think the secondary dominant was mentioned when talking about the A7. I could be wrong tho.

On the other hand, Bill Thrasher (a guitar teacher) use to tell me that the words never and always don't apply to music.

Well said.

[fep]

Maybe Don Mock didn't use a the term secondary dominant for the A7, I'll listen for that when I review the DVD this week.

But FWIW, the A7 is a secondary dominant chord in the key of G, also known as the V/V which is spoken as "the five of five".

[gersdal]

Intermediate rock/blues guys get what they need to jump to jazz, chordally anyway, with this vid.

Absolutely agree!

[monk]

Altered extensions are good,

Small terminology point. From my days at GIT.

Extensions are always diatonic, i.e. 9, 11, 13.

Alterations are chromatic, b5,#5, b9, #9.

Personally, I find the term E7alt to be vague. Stating the specifics such as E7b9 makes more sense IMO.
Regards,
monk

[mr. beaumont]

well, i'm home now, and i've sat down at the piano and the guitar...

depending on the voicing, I can make a 13 work. I can make a 9 work if I preceed it with a 13, and follow it with an A13 or A9 sound (with the 9th on top) These are not as "predictable" soundng, but less in a "wow, that was refreshing" way and more in a "hope the soloist has big ears" way.

I'd call it a "handle with care" situation as opposed to an avoid...It's definitely more natural for me to grab for a raised or lowered ninth, and both of those sound good no matter what.

[ajrdileva]

I would say in this case E7 has a two possible functions.

You're in G so it will at first sound as a secondary dominant V7/II and therefore take a Mixob13 (which will be expected to resolve to A-) but since it is being followed by all dominant chords over the circle of fifths it is also part of an extended dominant chain and in this case it can take regular Mixo or altered versions of mixo as long as the following chords take the same mode which will justify the mode you used over the E7.

I was looking at Don Mock’s DVD Jazz Guitar Rhythm Chops again yesterday, and one thing struck me as peculiar. In a standard jazz blues progression…
| G7 | C7 | G7 | G7 | C7 | C7 | G7 | E7 | A7 | D7 | G7 E7 | A7 D7 |
… he explains that the first E7 is a secondary subdominant, and since it is a secondary dominant you can’t put any kind of extensions on it. Altered extensions are good, but straight 9, 11 and 13 are no-no.

This is interesting information, but when he continues to the A7 chord he explains that you can do whatever you want with that. But, the A7 is also a secondary subdominant! Why is this rule only applicable for some secondary dominants? Is this because the A7 could have been an Am7, and that dictates the extensions to the secondary subdominant? The secondary subdominant for D7 will always go to a dominant seven, off course.

I’ve played around with various versions of extensions to the E7 and A7, and I think I have convinced myself with that Don Mock has got a good point, but does anyone have anything sound basis for this difference?

I think I remember that the Berkeley cord-scale book has got something on scales for the various secondary dominants, but I don't know if that has any relevance for this question.

This is a very good DVD btw … the pdf for the DVD is here for anyone interested: http://www.donmockguitar.com/pdf/Jaz...hythmChops.pdf

[mr. beaumont]

and that would be great info if gersdal had asked what to play over it.

[voelker]

is it just me or were u using secondary dominant and secondary subdominant interchangably in your original post?

[gersdal]

is it just me or were u using secondary dominant and secondary subdominant interchangably in your original post?

Good grief You're right. Sorry. I'll do an update.

[gersdal]

Extensions are always diatonic, i.e. 9, 11, 13.
Alterations are chromatic, b5,#5, b9, #9.

I'll be more carefull with my wording in the future.

What is the word for extensions and alterations? Substitutions? Substitutions are for me a new chord ...,

depending on the voicing, I can make a 13 work. I can make a 9 work if I preceed it with a 13, and follow it with an A13 or A9 sound (with the 9th on top) These are not as "predictable" soundng, but less in a "wow, that was refreshing" way and more in a "hope the soloist has big ears" way.

I'd call it a "handle with care" situation as opposed to an avoid...It's definitely more natural for me to grab for a raised or lowered ninth, and both of those sound good no matter what.

Point taken.

You're in G so it will at first sound as a secondary dominant V7/II and therefore take a Mixob13 (which will be expected to resolve to A-).

This is what I remember from the Berkeley books, and if extensions (including alterations) should follow the scale, b13 (or #5) would be better than 13. The soloist is more likely to be ok with the b13 at least.

Thanks to you all for good replies.

[voelker]

I could be wrong but I actually liked the idea of it being a secondary subdominant. Anytime I see parallel dominant movement in minor thirds I have to think diminished or altered, ex(E7, G7, Bb7) the E7alt is the VII7 of F melodic minor and the tritone sub for Bb7#11, the lydian dominant IV7 of F melodic minor. And there for a secondary subdominant

[voelker]

I guess there are many reasons why it works. i can also see the E7 as a dim passing chord from G7 to A7 derived from G dim half/whole. This scale differs from G altered in that it keeps the natural 6th (E) and the perfect 5th (D). Just like walking up G7, G#dim7, A7. add the (E) to the G#dim7 and it's E7b9/G# (3rd in the bass)

[gersdal]

You've lost me. I hope fep or someone else with more theoretical knowledge than me can elaborate on this ...

I could be wrong but I actually liked the idea of it being a secondary subdominant. Anytime I see parallel dominant movement in minor thirds I have to think diminished or altered, ex(E7, G7, Bb7) the E7alt is the VII7 of F melodic minor and the tritone sub for Bb7#11, the lydian dominant IV7 of F melodic minor. And there for a secondary subdominant

I guess there are many reasons why it works. i can also see the E7 as a dim passing chord from G7 to A7 derived from G dim half/whole. This scale differs from G altered in that it keeps the natural 6th (E) and the perfect 5th (D). Just like walking up G7, G#dim7, A7. add the (E) to the G#dim7 and it's E7b9/G# (3rd in the bass)

[Smitty]

I could be wrong but I actually liked the idea of it being a secondary subdominant. Anytime I see parallel dominant movement in minor thirds I have to think diminished or altered, ex(E7, G7, Bb7) the E7alt is the VII7 of F melodic minor and the tritone sub for Bb7#11, the lydian dominant IV7 of F melodic minor. And there for a secondary subdominant

Whew...I'll try and clear this up for you (I'll get to why I quoted this dude in a bit). For some reason you guys are making this very hard. I'll start off with some basic information that you may or may not already know, and then finally answer your question about "extensions." I know this post is long, but I guarantee this and therefore many other things will be clear as day by the end of it.
Firstly, a secondary dominant is a 7 chord that isn't a V7 (the "primary" dominant"), and it resolves down a 5th. If not, it is resolving deceptively. You can think of it as transposing to a new key for a moment, ie, the progression G7 C7 G7 E7 A7 D7 is in G, which then goes to the key of A for the E7 (E7 being the V) and then resolving down a 5th to the A7 (which is now in the key of D, where A7 is the V), and finally down another 5th to D7, which is back in the key of G. G7 and C7 in this case are called "non-dominant dominants." I7 only really occurs in the blues, and IV7 also only tends to. Your ear doesn't expect them to go anywhere (except for IV7 to go down to I7), hence the term "non-dominant" dominants.
A subdominant is a tritone substitution. It tends to move down a half step. If not, again, it is moving deceptively. For example, in the key of C, Db7 is called a subV7, because it is a substitution for G7. Ab7 is the subV7/V, because it is "subbing" for D7, the V7/V. Ab and D are a tritone apart. Pretty simple. Also, fun fact, subVs use the lydian dominant scale (1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7).
Now to the above quote. He says he thinks of the E7 (V7/II) as a secondary subdominant. I have a few problems with this.
1) I've never heard anyone call a chord a "secondary" subdominant. I can see why you would call it that, seeing as it's a substitution for a secondary dominant. But as far as I know, people simply call them subdominants. To each his own.
2) Why exactly would you call a V7/II a subdominant in the first place? You guys are making this WAY too difficult...it's I7 V7/II V7/V V7...RHYTHM CHANGES! It's the oldest string of dominant chords in all of jazz. Also, seeing as subdominants (nearly always) resolve down a half-step, that doesn't make any sense. You could do some different progressions to make it or one of the surrounding chords a subdominant, but seeing as all of these chords' roots are diatonic to G, I think it's pretty obvious that they're all secondary dominants.
Another fun fact: Secondary dominant roots are diatonic to the parent scale, subdominants are chromatic.

FINALLY, to answer your original question about tensions (not extensions, but tensions) you have to look at the chord scale for the chord.
E7=V7/II=some sort of mixolydian scale.
E mixo=E F# G# A B C# D
Now, you need to change it in order to make it as close to the tonic scale (G Mixo) as possible. You have to keep E, G#, and D, but the others can change at will. Keep all the tones that are diatonic or necessary, and you're left with:
E G# A B D
No 9 or 13. Neither F# or C# are diatonic to G mixo. So, we must alter them to F and C, which creates the chord scale Mixo b9/b13. And since you probably don't want a weird minor 3rd between your b9 and 3, most people add in #9 as well to smooth things out. Also, b9 and #9 are interchangeable, so there ya go.
The new scale is E F G G# A B C D: Mixo b9/b13, sometimes called Spanish Phrygian.
And yes, I'm aware that G should technically be F#.

That is how you should go about figuring what chord scale, and therefore tensions, can be played on any chord.
One more fun fact: You can substitute Superlocrian for Mixo b9/b13, because they have the same tensions.

Hope that helped dude.
Smitty

[monk]

I'll be more carefull with my wording in the future.

What is the word for extensions and alterations?

Alterations trump extensions. So a G13b9 would be Altered.
Regards,
monk

[gersdal]

...to answer your original question about tensions (not extensions, but tensions) you have to look at the chord scale for the chord.
E7=V7/II=some sort of mixolydian scale.
E mixo=E F# G# A B C# D
Now, you need to change it in order to make it as close to the tonic scale (G Mixo) as possible. You have to keep E, G#, and D, but the others can change at will. Keep all the tones that are diatonic or necessary, and you're left with:
E G# A B D
No 9 or 13. Neither F# or C# are diatonic to G mixo. So, we must alter them to F and C, which creates the chord scale Mixo b9/b13. And since you probably don't want a weird minor 3rd between your b9 and 3, most people add in #9 as well to smooth things out. Also, b9 and #9 are interchangeable, so there ya go.
The new scale is E F G G# A B C D: Mixo b9/b13, sometimes called Spanish Phrygian.
And yes, I'm aware that G should technically be F#.

That is how you should go about figuring what chord scale, and therefore tensions, can be played on any chord.
One more fun fact: You can substitute Superlocrian for Mixo b9/b13, because they have the same tensions.

Hope that helped dude.
Smitty

Thanks a lot. Yes, that helped for the E7. But still not for the A7.

Following your example for the A7, the underlying scale needs to include A, C# and G then, mixing this with the G mixolydian, the scale becomes A-B-C#-D-E-F-G (the only alteration to the G mixolydian being the C#). Which by the same argument would say 9 is ok, but no 13 (No F#, but a F). However, we are all using A13, and it sounds just fine

The question is still why Don Mock indicates that all tensions are possible for the A7?

[gersdal]

Alterations trump extensions. So a G13b9 would be Altered.

I was looking for the word tensions. My English ain't that good.