Musing about the Folk/Modal Jazz connection

[christianm77]

I suppose its just about possible Jansch, Renbourn and co may have heard Kind of Blue and liked it a bit

Pretty much a perfect rendition of a real trad English folk song

[christianm77]

First of all, thanks for posting Carthy's (pre-Simon) version. Beautiful singing and playing---so pure!

I've been thinking about this myself a lot lately, especially since I recently got a good Martin and plan to do a lot of performing/recording with it. Those beautiful, dark, low-position voicings were as much the lingua franca of the '60s as the electric stuff---and I'm a child of the '60s. Those things are in all our souls and brains. I was turned on to Jansch and Renbourne while still a teen. Remember learning Angi (did Paul Simon also record that?). Yeah, Joni played some weird-ass chords too! (And, since singing is so important in that music, I'd like to add the great Sandy Denny to the list).

And, yes, there are connections to jazz, strong ones---but we also ought to be a bit careful about hybrids. If you don't do right by either component you can ruin both. That folk music is so pure to me---like basic blues is---that I'm sort of torn between using it as a jumping-off point and just presenting it 'uncorrupted' (harmonically). Both ways can work, but I myself can't see, say, stacking a whole bunch of pentatonics and stuff over one or two chords solely on the grounds of 'alleviating boredom' or sameness*. That sound of low E, B, and adjacent F#/open G, D---3rd fret of B string is so pure, and resonant, it speaks volumes with nothing else needed. Simple, 'inside' improvising over that is what I hear---for myself.

*But I've been wrong before, lord knows...

Nice!

You know Carthy still performs... there’s a local pub I often play at where he and other masters such as Martin Simpson play... so crap at getting out to things. Will try and change that after lockdown.

in the hands of Dylan that repetition becomes hypnotic...

No I agree, with jazz fusions with anything like this- classical as well - I find the improvisation has to be very reigned in and sparing. A little jazz goes a long way.

Anyway one of the most successful fusions of recent years is Quercus with June Tabor, Iain Ballamy and Huw Warren on ECM. Anyone unaware of this album - it will wreck you.

[christianm77]

Is the Bull's Head still going? I recently read the Tubby Hayes bio "The Long Shadow of the Little Giant", and never knew that it became his home base after Ronnie Scott had a little tiff with Tubbs.
The folk-jazz-rock cross-pollination of the 60s and early 70s produced some great stuff. Who knew that Ian McDonald originally wrote KC's I Talk To the Wind as a folk song for Judy Dyble, and then Giles, Giles and Fripp changed it a bit, and finally KC produced the masterpiece on TCOTCK, with Fripp's octaves solo, and McDonald's swinging flute solo with Giles' tasty drum fills.

i have McDonald’s Beatles book. He hates all my favourite songs.

[joelf]

Christian: Did you know Frank Griffith any of the 20+ years he was in London? (He's in Liverpool now). An old mate of mine, going back to the early '80s. We're still very much in touch.

Sorry, everyone, to go off-topic for a sec...

[joelf]

'Quercus with June Tabor, Iain Ballamy and Huw Warren'...

So much music I don't know.

Ya need 2 lifetimes---at least...

[wolflen]

god..you all have me remembering my early roots...seeing Dylan on a live TV interview show..hearing his name on radio music stations the DJ's would play peter paul & mary and would credit Bob Dylan as the song writer..having no idea who Dylan was..I pictured a 40+yr old guy who played piano..and wrote songs..like the tin pan alley guys did..

so the Les Crane show..and Les says...ok..Bobby...and my life changed and i could not do anything about it..

out comes this young guy looked to be 20 at most...with a guitar and a harmonica around his neck..with hair that was windblown at best..and he starts singing..
and now he sounds 30 yrs older with a twang somewhere in his craggy sounding voice..not singing but not talking...and the song made no sense at all
what the hell was he singing about..."..Its alright ma..I'm only dying.." the guitar playing was ok I thought..but when he played the Honer blues harp held with the metal holder that was not melodic but outlined the song ...help...
the combination of "looks young/sounds old/guitar and harmonica going in different directions..

and then Les interviews him...and Bob is just so casual-cool ..he waves to friends in the live audience..one being Odetta..a popular folk singer at the time..and Les ask him questions about
Allen Ginsberg being a friend of his and Allen smoking pot..and Dylan says "..yeah?..no.. I didnt know that.." with such a innocent face..."who..me??"

then he played another song...and i felt like aliens had abducted me ...."you must leave now..take what you need you think will last.."

by the time he finished Baby Blue..I knew my parents would never understand what happened to me .. I know i sure didnt..

[PMB]

i have McDonald’s Beatles book. He hates all my favourite songs.

Different guy. The Beatles book author, Ian MacDonald's real name was Ian MacCormick (no idea why he used a pseudonym). And yes, I also find that book annoying...

[PMB]

I was at a John Renbourn gig in a pub in Brighton. He played some very nice jazzy stuff at the end. He said he got the sounds from piano music.

I had a pint with John Renbourn in the break at a folk gig in Brixton in '88. Lovely chap. He was always arranging piano tunes and played a couple by Abdullah Ibrahim/Dollar Brand (Cherry) and Randy Weston (Little Niles) that evening. John also shared a funny story with me. He'd felt a bit of a fraud playing medieval-inspired music throughout his early career and decided to study at Dartmouth College as an adult student. When the lecturer asked the lutenists in the class how they stumbled upon early music, they pointed at John!

[PMB]

Nice!

You know Carthy still performs... there’s a local pub I often play at where he and other masters such as Martin Simpson play... so crap at getting out to things. Will try and change that after lockdown.

Where's that, Christian? Don't mean to bore with another story but the first time I ever caught those two was in London in '83 (I live in Sydney but seem to have spent a decent amount of time in London pubs!). I saw Martin's name advertised on a blackboard outside the bar one morning so went back to the gig that night. A host of really terrible players got up first and I thought for a minute that it was some other guy, maybe Marvin McCarthy who was going to perform and was about to leave when Martin Simpson came on and played a stunning set. He then introduced Martin who was fantastic, in fine voice and playing his '59 Martin guitar with characteristic dexterity.

[grahambop]

Davy Graham was another one who did some jazz tunes.

[christianm77]

Where's that, Christian? Don't mean to bore with another story but the first time I ever caught those two was in London in '83 (I live in Sydney but seem to have spent a decent amount of time in London pubs!). I saw Martin's name advertised on a blackboard outside the bar one morning so went back to the gig that night. A host of really terrible players got up first and I thought for a minute that it was some other guy, maybe Marvin McCarthy who was going to perform and was about to leave when Martin Simpson came on and played a stunning set. He then introduced Martin who was fantastic, in fine voice and playing his '62 Martin guitar with characteristic dexterity.

The Ivy House in Peckam, which used to be the Newlands Tavern.... pretty legendary music pub, you might have heard of it? Jeff Beck and Ian Dury among others played there... The folk music night there is pretty much a who's who....

Great pub anyway.... run as a cooperative.

[cosmic gumbo]

Lots of modal folk music predates modal jazz, so I think the folkies looked to the roots of their own genre, it's usually part of the tradition, right? Early folk music of most ethnicities is very modal. Can you get more modal than bagpipes? The 60s was already the folk revival vs traditional folk music.

This is a traditional arrangement of a tune from at least the early 40s.

[christianm77]

I had a pint with John Renbourn in the break at a folk gig in Brixton in '88. Lovely chap. He was always arranging piano tunes and played a couple by Abdullah Ibrahim/Dollar Brand (Cherry) and Randy Weston (Little Niles) that evening. John also shared a funny story with me. He'd felt a bit of a fraud playing medieval-inspired music throughout his early career and decided to study at Dartmouth College as an adult student. When the lecturer asked the lutenists in the class how they stumbled upon early music, they pointed at John!

Haha that sounds about right...

Well certainly when I was getting into Machaut, the Lady and the Unicorn piqued my interest because I already knew of Renbourn. He was influenced by David Munrow, which was the first performances of that music I heard. Sad I never got to meet him.

Munrow had a real vibey, almost jazz approach to that music. Of course, scholarship has moved on (inevitably) but those recordings still work as music. Big influence on me. I definitely think that was an influence on Robert Sadin's Machaut project years later (featuring Lionel Loueke, Brad Mehldau and others... Sadin also produced Wayne Shorter's Alegria...)

[christianm77]

Lots of modal folk music predates modal jazz, so I think the folkies looked to the roots of their own genre, it's usually part of the tradition, right? Early folk music of most ethnicities is very modal. Can you get more modal than bagpipes? The 60s was already the folk revival vs traditional folk music.

This is a traditional arrangement of a tune from at least the early 40s.

There's a distinction between a drone and using modal harmonies .... the second is... more jazz? As you rightly say modes and drones have been in existence since forever... but the idea of taking a mode and using it as some sort of harmony, less so.

Things that pop into my head outside jazz though include Bulgarian choir singing.

[christianm77]

Fantastic recording btw, love that stuff.

[cosmic gumbo]

There's a distinction between a drone and using modal harmonies .... the second is... more jazz? As you rightly say modes and drones have been in existence since forever... but the idea of taking a mode and using it as some sort of harmony, less so.

It seems that modal use in folk music comes more from their own tradition than modal jazz. This is modal harmony too. Banjo is open tuning and mandolins are in 5ths, that almost gives you default modal chord voicings.

[christianm77]

It seems that modal use in folk music comes more from their own tradition than modal jazz.

The 'major scale' modes predate jazz by several thousand years.

This is modal harmony too. Banjo is open tuning and mandolins are in 5ths, that almost gives you default modal chord voicings.

Sure...

Banjos and mandolins not so common in the music I'm discussing specifically (1960s folk-baroque), and while banjo is used in Irish music, it's a different instrument - the tenor banjo. Again the retuning of the guitar encourages modal voicings, but the most popular tuning (DADGAD) was popularised among by a man who wrote a tune called 'Tristano' - so, yeah. Hard to disentangle.

When I listen to something like this (and for overring type techniques on banjo, or any stringed instrument), the main reference point I hear is the harp.

Maybe that's what Carthy had in mind when he came up with the Scarborough Fair arrangement? It seems more likely, I'm not sure if he was terribly interested in jazz.

But McManus plays 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' so... yeah.

So, my suspicion is this move towards modal sounds in all areas of music in the 60s was ... eclectic convergence... interest in folk music, Indian music and jazz moving to a more vamp based approach (rock musicians often talk about Coltrane) all influenced it...

[MarkRhodes]

Bossa comes a bit out of Barney Kessel, doesn’t it?

Yes. His backing of Julie London was hugely influential among Latin musicians of the time.

[cosmic gumbo]

So, my suspicion is this move towards modal sounds in all areas of music in the 60s was ... eclectic convergence... interest in folk music, Indian music and jazz moving to a more vamp based approach (rock musicians often talk about Coltrane) all influenced it...

I see that, but the climate was also about being stoned on pot, exploring, and finding a couple of cool chords to space out on. That was the 60s. Yes, it was a time of change and stoner folkies got electric guitars and started getting loose.

Only someone my age or older can understand what it meant to hear how very important the band Traffic was, as it happened. These guys were a gateway band to modern jazz for many listeners and musicians. It was an organic blend of folk, rock and modal jazz. I don't know if younger cats can look back and realize how important they were.

Don't skip the outro jam...

title track

[wolflen]

I see that, but the climate was also about being stoned on pot, exploring, and finding a couple of cool chords to space out on. That was the 60s. Yes, it was a time of change and stoner folkies got electric guitars and started getting loose.

Only someone my age or older can understand what it meant to hear how very important the band Traffic was, as it happened. These guys were a gateway band to modern jazz for many listeners and musicians. It was an organic blend of folk, rock and modal jazz. I don't know if younger cats can look back and realize how important they were.

Don't skip the outro jam...

title track

yeppers...folkies with electric guitars..ahh..yes..the greatful dead..jefferson airplane..et al...
there was a "one hit wonder" band called "its a beautiful day" did a tune called White Bird.. with a very sweet violin solo..that brought flavors of folk/country to many new ears..

some may not realize how "new" electric guitar was in the music of the 60's ..I mean it became THE VOICE unto itself...

remember the tune Sombody to Love by the Airplane and Jormas solo at the end of the tune was considered "radical" at that time..

1967...Monterey Pop..the first "rock festival" and the first time the US got to see Jimi...and the electric guitar world changed and is still changing

[sgcim]

i have McDonald’s Beatles book. He hates all my favourite songs.

As PMB said, there were two Ian McDonalds; one, some rock critic, doing his best to turn music into the garbage it's become, the other was the multi-instrumentalist/composer, co-founder of KC. The latter was the one I was referring to.

[christianm77]

As PMB said, there were two Ian McDonalds; one, some rock critic, doing his best to turn music into the garbage it's become, the other was the multi-instrumentalist/composer, co-founder of KC. The latter was the one I was referring to.

Actually the Revolution in the Head is rather a musically literate book.

He argues well why he dislikes my favourite songs, and I think in terms of making a case for Aesthetics in musical terms (which is always a stupid idea, from any direction, but can be an interesting thing to engage with) he does it better than most writers on rock. A lot of it is fairly conventional musicology, completely alien to the NME of my youth.

Musicians themselves are disincentivized to have any musical taste whatsoever (it interferes with work) and also have an emphasis on craft and technicality (they sit around gawping at Jacob Collier's voice leading), so there's definitely a space for a discerning critic in my opinion. So long as they don't portray their opinions as objective, which of course no professional critic does. (Although MacDonald does kind of come across as quite modernist)

Also 'the garbage music has become' is a boring and arid perspective. MacDonald is not to blame for the current form of chart pop, some of which I rather like. I don't think he's good enough at production.

And a King Crimson fan should find a LOT of music around today to enjoy... It's wall to wall prog out there...

[sgcim]

I see that, but the climate was also about being stoned on pot, exploring, and finding a couple of cool chords to space out on. That was the 60s. Yes, it was a time of change and stoner folkies got electric guitars and started getting loose.

Only someone my age or older can understand what it meant to hear how very important the band Traffic was, as it happened. These guys were a gateway band to modern jazz for many listeners and musicians. It was an organic blend of folk, rock and modal jazz. I don't know if younger cats can look back and realize how important they were.

Don't skip the outro jam...

title track

In one book on British Jazz in the 60s I read, Stevie Winwood was actually perceived in the UK as being originally a jazz musician, who switched over to R&B and rock, when he joined The Spencer Davis Group. His father was a p/t jazz musician, and Winwood used to play piano, and his brother Muff played drums in clubs, when they were playing in their father's jazz band when they were still in their early teens.
I was a Traffic fanatic when I was a kid, because my older sister had their records, and my little rock band would play stuff like "40,000 Headmen", which had a modal vibe to it. When "John Barleycorn" came out, this tune made it clear what Winwood's roots were. Check out his piano solo towards the end:

[sgcim]

I suppose its just about possible Jansch, Renbourn and co may have heard Kind of Blue and liked it a bit

Pretty much a perfect rendition of a real trad English folk song

Pentangle went full thrust into modern modal jazz on this one. Why can't there be a singer like Jacqui in the US!

[christianm77]

Stevie Winwood on the Moog with John Martyn.