Jazz recordings with masterful comping

[christianm77]

Having played with Peter in a lesson, there is nothing vague about Peter’s time feel.

If the music needs to have a clear pulse, he will do that. If he’s playing more interactively, he will access more complex rhythms but they are all locked in.

He is a breeze to play with, but as an educator can call you on your shit time, if required, without needing to say anything.

[christianm77]

with all my respect, this is more an antipattern of comping. The guitar exclusively dominates the bass solo, not just because the bad mix, but also the continous voice leading with the intense reverb an effect high pitch melody practically could be a stand alone solo which competes and beats the bass solo. Sad and excentic attitude. Also no traces of reacting or accompanying what the bass player tries to say. I practically felt sorry for the bass player while listening...

Allan tended to record albums with overdubs. So interaction in the moment was clearly not so important to him.

I find his comping to be quite ‘paddy’ like a string section. Or a synth.

[christianm77]

Guys, you NEED to check out Matt Munisteri - a MONSTER player/musician in all respects. Listen here :

There is plenty more with him and "The Earregulars"

Munisteri is really good. Lovely style of playing.

[Gabor]

Allan tended to record albums with overdubs. So interaction in the moment was clearly not so important to him.

I find his comping to be quite ‘paddy’ like a string section. Or a synth.

...and again poor bass player...
I can not stand to not associate masturbation vs real love making...

[GuyBoden]

...and again poor bass player...
I can not stand to not associate masturbation vs real love making...

That's a very disrespectful statement to apply to such an accomplished and pioneering musician as the late Allan Holdsworth.

He's not everyone's cup of tea, but please show some respect and humanity.

[takefive]

This

[Tal_175]

This

I don't know I find this kind of comping a bit distracting. I takes attention away from the solo without any interaction. I guess it's fine in a duo context if done sparingly.
It's basically stride piano on guitar right? Of course it's stylistically well suited to Gypsy jazz/swing contexts.

[christianm77]

I don't know I find this kind of comping a bit distracting. I takes attention away from the solo without any interaction. I guess it's fine in a duo context if done sparingly.
It's basically stride piano on guitar right? Of course it's stylistically well suited to Gypsy jazz/swing contexts.

Holy shit, that’s the way people played guitar in 1942. And he does it great. Bebop comping hadn’t been invented yet.

Also bird is still clearly indebted to swing era Sax players like Lester Young at this point. Notice how on the beat his phrasing is.

no pleasing some people lol

[Tal_175]

Holy shit, that’s the way people played guitar in 1942. And he does it great. Bebop comping hadn’t been invented yet.

Also bird is still clearly indebted to swing era Sax players like Lester Young at this point. Notice how on the beat his phrasing is.

no pleasing some people lol

Yeah it's probably just me. I don't listen to much of anything before bebop and after post-bop/hard-bop. If I go outside of this range, I'm more likely to go towards the more modern side rather than the older.

[Reg]

Yea, and that was only 80 years ago.
What's cool...I is still sub and perform with bands like that, and when the tempos get up, that's where we go.... all back of the bus and extremely straight. I still dig it, it fun... I tend to do that rocket to the moon thing, keep the rhythm very straight or use the pre-fab tripled or 3 groupings patterns with longer straight rhythmic targets. And then have fun with the changes...
I mean... how many choruses do you take on Cherokee... lots. yea make the first few choruses beautiful while everyone catches they're breath. I mean that bridge... it's just hard to hold back.

[Jonah]

I don't know I find this kind of comping a bit distracting. I takes attention away from the solo without any interaction. I guess it's fine in a duo context if done sparingly.
It's basically stride piano on guitar right? Of course it's stylistically well suited to Gypsy jazz/swing contexts.

I think it could sound distracting to our ears...


Very important wrords you said about 'any interaction'.

Actually .. (with my also classical background and baroque continou copming) i find that the origins of jazz/rock/pop styles all include 'rhythm section' - which is reall about general pulse... in rock music they do not interact much too - they just keep the pulse

In baroque it is quite the oppsite in my opinion (whatever modern rock-influenced baroque players try to impose) -- it is all the time (and they react and interact all the time... it is very flexible time)...

And modern jazz is much in between imho... often that pulse is just meant and intended but not played straightly but it should be felt behind somehow

[PMB]

Holy shit, that’s the way people played guitar in 1942. And he does it great. Bebop comping hadn’t been invented yet.

Also bird is still clearly indebted to swing era Sax players like Lester Young at this point. Notice how on the beat his phrasing is.

no pleasing some people lol

Forget the guitar playing, that's just choice early Bird! Always loved that solo. As you say, a beautiful transition between Lester Young and his later mature style.

True that bebop comping wasn't yet a thing but one guitarist who bridged that gap - Barney Kessel regarded him as 'the missing link' between swing and bop - is Oscar Moore. As great as they were, players like George Van Eps and Allan Reuss mostly split their duties between playing 'rhythm' and chordal solos when working in an ensemble context but Moore mixed that all up in his early trio work with Nat King Cole.

[christianm77]

Well that kind of goes to my point about rhythm guitar not being comping.

people who don’t listen to pre war jazz I don’t think realise how different - archaic - it sounds right up till the recording ban. Much more locked in. Particularly important is the different style of drumming.

So given we had progressive swing Sax players like Don Byas I’m tempted to say the great transforming genius of bebop was not Charlie Parker but Kenny Clarke whose switch to the new ride cymbal completely redefined the sound of the rhythm section and made the new comping style possible. It is also a hell of a lot easier to play bebop phrases with a more bop rhythm section. Again hear at how locked in Bird is in 1942 compared to after the war.

Anyway one box set that’s quite interesting to get a sense of how much jazz rhythm section playing evolved in just a few years is Coleman Hawkins the Bebop Years.

[christianm77]

Forget the guitar playing, that's just choice early Bird! Always loved that solo. As you say, a beautiful transition between Lester Young and his later mature style.

True that bebop comping wasn't yet a thing but one guitarist who bridged that gap - Barney Kessel regarded him as 'the missing link' between swing and bop - is Oscar Moore. As great as they were, players like George Van Eps and Allan Reuss mostly split their duties between playing 'rhythm' and chordal solos when working in an ensemble context but Moore mixed that all up in his early trio work with Nat King Cole.

Oscar Moore is underrated for sure. That line up - guitar/piano/bass was massively popular in the 40s and 50s to judge from the discography. Was it Bill Evans who put us out of a gig, or Ahmad Jamal?

I always bang on about this bit there is such a thing as bop rhythm guitar which I think of as a very different style to the 1940s thing.

Generally it happens when there’s no drums - such that trio format - and it shows Kenny Clarke’s influence in evolution from the train-like ‘boom chick’ of that 1940s Parker recording to the smooth automotive glide of post war swing. It’s one of my favourite styles.

tal in particular sounds like a trap set

Listening to Pisanos comping above I’m stuck by how it represents a slight loosening of the rhythm guitar approach but retains its groove.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Please post tunes/recordings where comping (guitar or piano) has great educational value.

I am not interested in masterful comping. I am interested in effective comping with good placement of the chords.

Listen to the most elementary of jazz chords being played by Doug Raney when he is comping in the classic Chet Baker Trio recordings. Mostly the basic root 6 and root 5 chords you learn when you start out. He does not even leave the roots out.

Doug comps with these basic voicings all the way through his classic recordings with Chet Baker. NOTHING fancy and still highly effective. I do the same in my own Chet Baker Tribute Trio.

When I first listened to his comping I was amazed at the simplicity of his voicings. But it works great.

DB

[Jazzism]

That's a very disrespectful statement to apply to such an accomplished and pioneering musician as the late Allan Holdsworth.

He's not everyone's cup of tea, but please show some respect and humanity.

Yep, I agree, the only person jerking off here is this idiot!

[christianm77]

I am not interested in masterful comping. I am interested in effective comping with good placement of the chords.

Listen to the most elementary of jazz chords being played by Doug Raney when he is comping in the classic Chet Baker Trio recordings. Mostly the basic root 6 and root 5 chords you learn when you start out. He does not even leave the roots out.

Doug comps with these basic voicings all the way through his classic recordings with Chet Baker. NOTHING fancy and still highly effective. I do the same in my own Chet Baker Tribute Trio.

When I first listened to his comping I was amazed at the simplicity of his voicings. But it works great.

DB

Sure that not doubling the root thing has always been bollocks. Same for piano players.

[takefive]

Holy shit, that’s the way people played guitar in 1942. And he does it great. Bebop comping hadn’t been invented yet.

Also bird is still clearly indebted to swing era Sax players like Lester Young at this point. Notice how on the beat his phrasing is.

no pleasing some people lol

I love playing swing rhythms. Swing rhythms and bluesy bop solos.

[Low Strung]

DB - Thanks for posting the Chet Baker stuff. I'm an old dude, former trumpet player now working on guitar again for fun - the instrument I first played when I was 10 - before the elementary school band gave me a trumpet and ruined my life...

Having a Chet tribute trio, you are probably familiar with his 1957 instrumental version of Little Girl Blue accompanied by Dave Wheat on guitar. I had to bold and underline the "comp" part - for fun - because of this discussion on "comping" which can mean a lot of different things.

Dave Wheat's accompaniment of Chet is a work of art. For those not familiar, it's just a duo with Chet being Chet and Wheat laying down a sweet accompaniment. The thing about it, from a trumpet player's perspective is that Wheat really lays down the time like clockwork - sometimes with just one note to keep it moving forward - which makes it so much easier for Chet to be free in all of his phrasing and precise in his timing.

There is another instrumental version where Chet plays with a pianist and it seems to me the piano isn't locking in the time. He's playing too freely which makes it difficult for Chet to lock in. Chet seems to be waiting for the piano and I think it puts him off.

In any case, I thought some of you might like to hear Dave Wheat. I had to go to the album to look up who the guitar player was, then to the web to get his background. From Wikipedia -

David "Buck" Wheat (1922–1985) was an American folk and jazz musician, songwriter and recording artist. The Texas-born Wheat was a well-known guitarist and bass player with the big dance bands of the era, playing at the Chicago Playboy Jazz Festival 1959 in The Playboy Jazz All Stars and the Chet Baker Trio. He was also bassist with the Kingston Trio - the 4th person on stage.

Jeff

[PMB]

Well that kind of goes to my point about rhythm guitar not being comping.

people who don’t listen to pre war jazz I don’t think realise how different - archaic - it sounds right up till the recording ban. Much more locked in. Particularly important is the different style of drumming.

So given we had progressive swing Sax players like Don Byas I’m tempted to say the great transforming genius of bebop was not Charlie Parker but Kenny Clarke whose switch to the new ride cymbal completely redefined the sound of the rhythm section and made the new comping style possible. It is also a hell of a lot easier to play bebop phrases with a more bop rhythm section. Again hear at how locked in Bird is in 1942 compared to after the war.

Anyway one box set that’s quite interesting to get a sense of how much jazz rhythm section playing evolved in just a few years is Coleman Hawkins the Bebop Years.

If Miles is to be believed, it was both Kenny Clarke and Charlie Christian. The Proper Hawkins box set is excellent as is Scott DeVeaux's book covering that transitional period, The Birth of Bebop.

[Petimar]

No love for Wes on this thread? He's my all time favorite string comping player.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

DB - Thanks for posting the Chet Baker stuff. I'm an old dude, former trumpet player now working on guitar again for fun - the instrument I first played when I was 10 - before the elementary school band gave me a trumpet and ruined my life...
David "Buck" Wheat (1922–1985) was an American folk and jazz musician, songwriter and recording artist. The Texas-born Wheat was a well-known guitarist and bass player with the big dance bands of the era, playing at the Chicago Playboy Jazz Festival 1959 in The Playboy Jazz All Stars and the Chet Baker Trio. He was also bassist with the Kingston Trio - the 4th person on stage.

Jeff

I must admit I have not heard this track before. We mostly concentrate on Chet's trio work in the late 70s and mid 80s with Doug Raney and Philippe Catherine on guitar. So thanks for the heads up for this track. Very sweet!

DB

[wintermoon]

"You should never hear the guitar by itself. It should be part of the drums so it sounds like the drummer is playing chords—like the snare is in A or the hi-hat in D minor"—?Freddie Green

[christianm77]

People keep talking about rhythm guitar haha

But I love that FG quote. Although he doesn’t half stick out when you know what to listen for.

[Reg]

Man... I listened to the SDMPWC vid by DB with Rainey and Pedersen... sorry... time was not very good and if Pedersen hadn't been play... it would have been lousy. I generally love Raney's playing...

I agree with DB's approach, especially in that setting. I also play tons of no drums gigs, (well use to), but the mixing and somewhat non organized use of rhythmic attack patterns ....almost awkward, was hard to take.

Am I the only one hearing this?