Chord naming question

**ragman1** · 10-31-2019, 03:28 PM

Pumped, eh? Good lord

What do you make of G+7(#9) ?

**shrews824** · 10-31-2019, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Pumped, eh? Good lord

What do you make of G+7(#9) ?

How do you mean?

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**ragman1** · 10-31-2019, 03:34 PM

It's on the last Autumn Leaves sheet. What do you think that notation means? What notes? How would you play the chord?

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-31-2019, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Never seen that sort of fiasco.

In French and Brazilian charts I often see C7M instead Cmaj7

I debated bringing up notation in older Brazilian charts.

I have seen, iirc, either +7 or 7+ to mean major seventh, not augmented fifth.

And, then there's M for minor with Ma for major, which can be confusing. CM7(MA7) for min/maj.

Additional chord symbols that I'm seeing more are things like C lyd, C phryg.

How would you interpret D7M/F#? That comes from one of the Chediak books.

What about F(#11)? Would you put in a seventh? A natural 5th?

A74(9), where the 7 is directly above the 4.

**ragman1** · 10-31-2019, 03:36 PM

A74(9)

What?!!

**grahambop** · 10-31-2019, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

YES! I thought it might be you :-)

Thanks, I shan't be referring to that very often

Just seen:

Attachment 66100

WT*?

Possibly it means play C7 with a 5th (G) in the bass? Maybe a proper gypsy jazzer would know, I think they use these grille things.

**shrews824** · 10-31-2019, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

It's on the last Autumn Leaves sheet. What do you think that notation means? What notes? How would you play the chord?

I'm guessing G sharp 7 sharp 9.

G#, C, F#, B?????? Maybe (fingers crossed)????

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**christianm77** · 10-31-2019, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I debated bringing up notation in older Brazilian charts.

I have seen, iirc, either +7 or 7+ to mean major seventh, not augmented fifth.

And, then there's M for minor with Ma for major, which can be confusing. CM7(MA7) for min/maj.

Additional chord symbols that I'm seeing more are things like C lyd, C phryg.

How would you interpret D7M/F#? That comes from one of the Chediak books.

What about F(#11)? Would you put in a seventh? A natural 5th?

A74(9), where the 7 is directly above the 4.

Oh yes, it's coming back now. Love the Chediak changes, worth persisting with... So lets see... This is very much a guitar book, finger style chords, bass often on string 6, fingers playing the other notes...

D7M/F# is usually 2 x 0 2 2 x or some such... Dmaj7/F# anyway...

F(#11) ... I think this might be 1 x 3 2 0 x but I'm open to correction.

A74(9) OF COURSE, is an A9sus4, so the classic 5 x 5 4 3 x

How did I do?

**christianm77** · 10-31-2019, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Possibly it means play C7 with a 5th (G) in the bass? Maybe a proper gypsy jazzer would know, I think they use these grille things.

Further reassuring proof that I am not really a gypsy jazzer. No idea what that's meant to be.

**ragman1** · 10-31-2019, 04:24 PM

I might be making a fuss but I can work it out really :-)

It's A9sus4. Naturally :-)

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-31-2019, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Oh yes, it's coming back now. Love the Chediak changes, worth persisting with... So lets see... This is very much a guitar book, finger style chords, bass often on string 6, fingers playing the other notes...

D7M/F# is usually 2 x 0 2 2 x or some such... Dmaj7/F# anyway...

F(#11) ... I think this might be 1 x 3 2 0 x but I'm open to correction.

A74(9) OF COURSE, is an A9sus4, so the classic 5 x 5 4 3 x

How did I do?

I agree with all of the above.

I also seem to recall seeing A4/7(9), with the 4 directly above the 7. I interpret that as indicating that the 4 (more correctly, the 11) should be played above the 7.

Hermeto has his own way of writing chords. I heard that it was a series of numbers reflecting intervals (not sure if they were the related to the root, or to the prior note in the ascending sequence). That may be an efficient approach given his great ears and poor vision.

For Clyd, I usually think Cmaj7#11.

For Cphryg, I usually think Csusb9.

Are there better ways to think about the lyd and phryg symbols?

**ragman1** · 10-31-2019, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by shrews824

I'm guessing G sharp 7 sharp 9.

G#, C, F#, B?????? Maybe (fingers crossed)????

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That's just it, it's not G#. The + isn't used for the basic chord names, only for the alterations. So it would be G7+ which means augmented, which means a #5. The #9 means just that, so it's a G7#5#9. That's one of the standard ways to alter a dominant.

Played xx3446 or x89811x. It's a nice chord, I use it quite a bit.

The bass doesn't need to be put in all the time on a chord. One could, I suppose, make a bar on the 3rd fret for the G bass with that first fingering but it's awkward and probably unnecessary. In a band, the bassist would play it anyway.

So, yes, Gm can be written G-. But G# wouldn't be written G+. I know, it's a nuisance :-)

**shrews824** · 10-31-2019, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

That's just it, it's not G#. The + isn't used for the basic chord names, only for the alterations. So it would be G7+ which means augmented, which means a #5. The #9 means just that, so it's a G7#5#9. That's one of the standard ways to alter a dominant.

Played xx3446 or x89811x. It's a nice chord, I use it quite a bit.

The bass doesn't need to be put in all the time on a chord. One could, I suppose, make a bar on the 3rd fret for the G bass with that first fingering but it's awkward and probably unnecessary. In a band, the bassist would play it anyway.

So, yes, Gm can be written G-. But G# wouldn't be written G+. I know, it's a nuisance :-)

Gotcha.

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**cosmic gumbo** · 11-01-2019, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by shrews824

Please forgive me in advance if this question is rudimentary or simple.

I hope you found out that a simple question takes 63 posts to kind of answer. Imagine if you ask a complicated question?

The thing to understand about jazz guitar learning/reference materials is that all sorts of folks unqualified to teach have no problem clogging the interenet with stuff laden with mistakes, because they believe they are correct. Beware.

**ragman1** · 11-01-2019, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I hope you found out that a simple question takes 63 posts to kind of answer. Imagine if you ask a complicated question?

The thing to understand about jazz guitar learning/reference materials is that all sorts of folks unqualified to teach have no problem clogging the internet with stuff laden with mistakes, because they believe they are correct. Beware.

That's just it, although, with jazz guitar and music info, it's generally not too bad. Occasionally you see bloopers but the general thrust is usually accurate enough. It's how it's presented and displayed that makes or breaks it. Some sites are just awful.

But I agree, as a learner, how does one find the best places? Very difficult. Sometimes it's just trial and error. A teacher/teaching site may be good for one person but not another.

**christianm77** · 11-01-2019, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by shrews824

No sir, I would never presume that every song I ran across would be simple. In fact, I would probably presume that every song I run across would be quite difficult.

.... and you aren't bothering me. I very much enjoy the interaction. It gets me pumped about getting home and grabbing my guitar!!!

Big thing most people miss in the study of jazz, even when quite advanced, good to bear it in mind from the start.

'Jazz is a decorative art' Peter Bernstein

So, you have the plain basics and the ornamentation over the top. Look at the chart rag posted and it's there right in front of you. Plain chords above the stave are the basic chords. Chords in brackets are suggestions for decoration.

Also compare the standard 12 bar blues to the jazz version.

Being a jazz guitarists entails learning fancy stuff that you can put on everything. But the basics are simple, most of the time.

**shrews824** · 11-01-2019, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I hope you found out that a simple question takes 63 posts to kind of answer. Imagine if you ask a complicated question?

The thing to understand about jazz guitar learning/reference materials is that all sorts of folks unqualified to teach have no problem clogging the interenet with stuff laden with mistakes, because they believe they are correct. Beware.

Haha. Yeah, I wasn't expecting to receive that kind of interaction. I enjoyed it though. I tried to absorb everyone's take on it and found it very useful. I agree, I believe some of the material I'll just have to weed through and figure out what is correct or not.

Originally Posted by ragman1

That's just it, although, with jazz guitar and music info, it's generally not too bad. Occasionally you see bloopers but the general thrust is usually accurate enough. It's how it's presented and displayed that makes or breaks it. Some sites are just awful.

But I agree, as a learner, how does one find the best places? Very difficult. Sometimes it's just trial and error. A teacher/teaching site may be good for one person but not another.

This ^^^^ Some folks are just better at explaining things than others.

Originally Posted by christianm77

Big thing most people miss in the study of jazz, even when quite advanced, good to bear it in mind from the start.

'Jazz is a decorative art' Peter Bernstein

So, you have the plain basics and the ornamentation over the top. Look at the chart rag posted and it's there right in front of you. Plain chords above the stave are the basic chords. Chords in brackets are suggestions for decoration.

Also compare the standard 12 bar blues to the jazz version.

Being a jazz guitarists entails learning fancy stuff that you can put on everything. But the basics are simple, most of the time.

I have had no problem understanding the basic layout of jazz guitar and jazz in general. Just by default being a guitar player for a number of years it has been relatively easy to follow the progressions...... but those "fancy" chords are something different altogether.

**ragman1** · 11-01-2019, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by shrews824

Some folks are just better at explaining things than others.

True, but it's also a two-way thing. Both parties must be simpatico, or whatever the word is. Some instructors are very popular but I don't get them at all :-)

**shrews824** · 11-01-2019, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

True, but it's also a two-way thing. Both parties must be simpatico, or whatever the word is. Some instructors are very popular but I don't get them at all :-)

True, true. It's definitely reciprocal.

**ragman1** · 11-01-2019, 10:05 AM

Thank you. Reciprocal!

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 11-01-2019, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by shrews824

I have had no problem understanding the basic layout of jazz guitar and jazz in general. Just by default being a guitar player for a number of years it has been relatively easy to follow the progressions...... but those "fancy" chords are something different altogether.

If you are sight reading and come across a chord like

G7 #5 b9

It okay to keep it simple and just play the third and seventh: xx34xx

This is especially true if you are playing with a bassist -- leave the low notes to him. If you are comping on your own, you can add a bass note: 3x34xx

I have a diagram in my head that I've digested that shows options over that shell chord, for example, I start with the 3rd and 7th:

Code:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

Then I have a choice of notes on the B string:

Code:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|b5-|-5-|#5-|-6-|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

If the note you choose sounds bad in context, remember you are a fret away from a better sounding note! Also remember charts are usually suggestions, not ironclad rules.

Choices on the E string:

Code:

||---|---|-R-|b9-|-9-|#9-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

It's not complicated -- 5s on the B string and 9s on the E string. Play none, either or both.

**shrews824** · 11-01-2019, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

If you are sight reading and come across a chord like

G7 #5 b9

It okay to keep it simple and just play the third and seventh: xx34xx

This is especially true if you are playing with a bassist -- leave the low notes to him. If you are comping on your own, you can add a bass note: 3x34xx

I have a diagram in my head that I've digested that shows options over that shell chord, for example, I start with the 3rd and 7th:

Code:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

Then I have a choice of notes on the B string:

Code:

||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|b5-|-5-|#5-|-6-|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

If the note you choose sounds bad in context, remember you are a fret away from a better sounding note! Also remember charts are usually suggestions, not ironclad rules.

Choices on the E string:

Code:

||---|---|-R-|b9-|-9-|#9-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|

It's not complicated -- 5s on the B string and 9s on the E string. Play none, either or both.

More than likely I will be comping by myself for the foreseeable future, so I'll work on grabbing those bass notes.

I agree about the charts too. I need to get it out of my head that I have to play it exactly note for note. Chances are very few people would even notice if I were to ever play a particular standard in front of people. As long as the chord or key is correct and doesn't clash I would hope that I would be forgiven.

**grahambop** · 11-01-2019, 11:39 AM

If you’re not familiar with jazz chords, check out the lessons on this forum, e.g.

Jazz Guitar Chords - Everything You Need To Master Jazz Chords

**shrews824** · 11-01-2019, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

If you’re not familiar with jazz chords, check out the lessons on this forum, e.g.

Jazz Guitar Chords - Everything You Need To Master Jazz Chords

Thanks. Appreciate the link.

**rpjazzguitar** · 11-01-2019, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by shrews824

More than likely I will be comping by myself for the foreseeable future, so I'll work on grabbing those bass notes.

I agree about the charts too. I need to get it out of my head that I have to play it exactly note for note. Chances are very few people would even notice if I were to ever play a particular standard in front of people. As long as the chord or key is correct and doesn't clash I would hope that I would be forgiven.

Forgiven? I hope so! The idea of jazz is to create interesting/appealing sounds. There's a strong argument that, as soon as you learn the straight version, you start experimenting with the alterations that appeal to you. More variation and more of your take on the song.