Rhythm changes bridge -7b5 to 7alt

[sully75]

Hey all

I'm working on playing over rhythm changes and making some etudes to try different approaches.

I was wondering about playing minor II Vs over the bridge with altered dominants but not sure that I've heard or seen that approach. Is that something that's doable or is it a bad idea for some reason?

Thanks
Paul


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[eh6794-2.0]

Does it sound good?

[mrcee]

That works. Or just put a min7 built on the 5 chord before the dom7. ie. Am7 to D7. Another way to approach the bridge is to use b5 subs. Any number of altered or extended chords will work. There's more on this on this site in blogs or lessons. Or maybe Matt Warnock's site. This is good stuff to develop 'chord feeding' and loose free comping in general and to get away from playing the changes "off the workbench" so to speak (or over substituting them) and still stay in the pocket rhythmically and harmonically.

hmmm.....the following didn't format right and I couldn't edit it but it should be obvious that there's 2 beats per chord and there are possible fingerings in brackets.

Am7- D7b9- Eb7 -Ab7 (8x7x98x - 8x787x (Am7 D7b9)

Dm7 - G7- Abm7 - Db7b9 (7x687x - 7x676x (Abm7 Db7b9)

Gm7 - C7b9 - Dbm7 - Gb7 (6x576x - 6x565x (Gm7 C7b9)

Cm7 - F7 - Gbm7 - B7b9 (5x465x - 5x454x (Gbm7 B7b9)

[christianm77]

Hey all

I'm working on playing over rhythm changes and making some etudes to try different approaches.

I was wondering about playing minor II Vs over the bridge with altered dominants but not sure that I've heard or seen that approach. Is that something that's doable or is it a bad idea for some reason?

Thanks
Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What you need to do is fill form 24B and post it to the Jazz Police. They will reply with a definitive answer within 14 days.

[docbop]

It's Jazz you don't ask you just do, if you don't make it work well you buy the first round of drinks that night.

[mrcee]

Then what's the point of things like this forum?

[grahambop]

What you need to do is fill form 24B and post it to the Jazz Police. They will reply with a definitive answer within 14 days.

Do be aware however that if they find it too subversive they are likely to knock on your door at 4 a.m. one morning and cart you off to the Jazz Correctional Centre. So it might be as well to have a suitcase packed and ready.

[docbop]

Then what's the point of things like this forum?

Think about life do you ask and research every step you take before you take it. No, you take it and assess it slippery, it's sticky, it nice grass, dam this sand is hot.

IMO questions should be "I tried this and...". I used to teach computer programming and people wondered why kids seems to learn new technology and things adults can't. It's not their age it kids aren't afraid to make mistakes and willing to keep pounding at something till they not only know it, but know all sorts things the mistakes taught them.

Also in many of my posts and some others too you see comment, it's the process that teaches not the final answer. Music is more like that than anything I can think of especially Jazz which is an music that is totally about exploring in real time.

To me this forum is about talking about results from exploration and recommendation of new paths to explore.

Late last night too tired to practice I was checking out some Youtube vlogs and came across this one by Bob Reynolds sax player with John Mayer and Snarky Puppy. Around the 2 minute mark he talks about the Patterns for Jazz book and I think it relates to the point I'm trying to make.

[mrcee]

I don't think there's any specific way a question should be asked as long as it's respectful it's deserving of a respectful answer. The OP had a clear question and could have received straight answers. Often people post a question and get back what I consider to be insufferably long answers. But at least the questions are answered and not blown off.

[ColinO]

I thought docbop's answer was completely respectful and exactly the right approach the OP should be taking. Try it - if it works for you then use it. If it doesn't then don't. You learn a lot by trying something even if it doesn't work.

[mrcee]

True but you also can learn a lot by asking questions. And there are for sure lots of different approaches. The OP's approach was obviously to ask a question. I'm hoping this forum has a broader scope than just talking about results of explorations. There are players/students that are both inexperienced and experienced who have questions. Some haven't even started to explore much less gotten any results. Someone recently posted looking for recommendations for a tech to do a fret job. Or advice for finding a job. Or any number of things regarding theory or gear etc. This information more than likely is easily available online or can be learned by "just doing it" but the questions were asked and got helpful replies. There was a person named Reg that used to often post here that was very generous in his replies to questions. The classic big bands tended to have one member known as "the prof" (the professor). The go-to guy for questions. Diz was the prof in Cab Callaway's band and I believe there was a guy in Jay McShann's band who was always getting his brains picked by Charlie Parker during Bird's time of heavy woodshedding in the Ozarks. Or I could be thinking about Buster Smith from Kansas City who was also a mentor. The greats tend to use everything at their disposal to learn and develop. Trial and error, heavy listening, playing classical etudes, etc etc and, asking questions. The Chinese say that it's the sign of a smart person who asks a lot of questions.

And back to the OP. The rhythm changes bridge is an important part of the harmonic vocabulary of modern jazz. It can seem a little middle of the road which is probably why it's earned the nickname of "The Sears Roebuck Bridge" but it's gotten a lot of mileage and admittedly has had no dearth of previous discussion on this forum as have plenty of other things. I put in my 2 pesos worth and was hoping for more discussion.

And....if I'm planning on walking in the dark without a flashlight in an unfamiliar and maybe dangerous area I'm sure as hell going to ask a few questions.

[christianm77]

According to Hal Galper most of the teaching back in the day was done by way of one liners.

[mrcee]

And an awful lot of on the bandstand experience.

Oh, to be "back in the day". It's good they didn't have forums back then. They would have been pretty terse. And Hal Galper wouldn't have had a job except as a player.

[docbop]

According to Hal Galper most of the teaching back in the day was done by way of one liners.

Very true and some very Zen as people talk about Miles classic "don't play the butter notes". My favorite was some guy as been pestering Monk with a question. Monk finally had it walks to the piano and hits two chords and say "there's the answer". Then Bill Evans brother also plays piano and Bill was same way with his brother. Finally his brother asked Bill why he won't answer his question and Bill says... I don't want to denie you the pleasure you'll get when you discover it yourself.

Music is about sound and your ears learning those sounds. Even if given the answer it's meaningless until you sit and play with it for who know how long. You learn the sound, you experiment and modify it, then you work it into tunes, you internalize the sound. Learning all the Arts are about discovery of emotional reaction to preforming the Art. You learn by doing and experiencing the result. One my favorite Improv teachers from music school. He'd had it with this one trumpet player asking a million questions and obviously not practicing. He said... You know it's like sex, you can read all the books in the world about screwing you want, but you won't have a clue what it feels like until you actually do it. The teacher actually language was far more colorful and delivery has us all laughing.

That's life you can't just read about it, you have to do it.

[mrcee]

^^^^^^^

You're absolutely right. And I couldn't have said it better myself but I stand by my opinion that in today's world even though nothing has fundamentally changed from back in the day that it may not always be possible or practical. We don't live for most of us in a culture of jazz or even a daily environment of the repertoire which makes the opportunities for "just doing it" limited. That's not to say that person can't learn the music though, ideally as you say by not asking a lot of questions but by listening and playing. And many of us never have lived in that environment or culture. That's one reason that forums like this are valuable. Not just for sharing the results of experiences, as you mention, but for asking intelligent questions. And I believe there is a time for the intelligent question. And I agree about the person who asks a ton of questions who never plays. I know someone like that and he never gets anywhere. He can't even transpose a C, F and G song into G. I won't answer his questions anymore. I've got my limits as a person in all areas including musicianship but not having grown up around the music isn't one of them. As a 70 year old (now) I was aware enough and lucky to be exposed to modern jazz as a prepubescent kid living in the NYC area. I would go into Greenwich Village as a 12 year old with my allowance and buy modern jazz records. I'd worn out more than one Miles on Prestige record by the time I hit Jr. Hi and had "Bird Lives" written on my school notebook in 1959 much to the amusement of my classmates. So somebody that was born in 1972 that grew up playing prog rock or metal on a BC Rich Warlock and discovered jazz for the first time in 1995 is going, imo, to have to use every tool in the tool box to get on board. Including asking a few intelligent questions now and then. As I think you'd agree with, and I'm paraphrasing: "if you have to ask you won't understand". Well, I could say that if you didn't grow up around the music and have cast the die of your musicality with a bunch of heavy metal or hard rock you probably will never completely get Jazz. It's like Hank Williams said: "you'll never be able to play country music unless you've surveyed a lot of farm land over the backside of a mule."

Just one guy's opinion and I'm sure many of earlier generations felt the same way about Diz's Chinese Music. Time moves on and new generations with new experiences do things differently.

[StanG]

I saw a Dave Liebman masterclass where he talked about playing with Pete LaRoca and Elvin Jones when he was young. He wondered why they didn't weren't giving him any direction as to what they wanted him to play. La Roca, told him something to the effect that as long as I'm not saying anything you are doing fine-keep doing what you are doing.

[mrcee]

Again, I agree, and not to beat a live horse, but these guys you all mention are pros. Beginners these days may need more guidance. I don't play professionally much although I can and have and will at times but I don't say or ask nothin' at the gig or rehearsals. I listen to rehearsal recordings and there's never a peep out of me.

And even though my posts on this thread may indicate otherwise I rarely if ever get involved in threads where someone asks a theory question. I broke my rule on this thread and what a can of worms that opened. I've learned my lesson. I'll keep to the jokes and light banter and personal stories from my vast experience and let some of the regulars and other forum pets weigh in heavy with the insufferable theory posts and videos. None of which I've ever wanted to follow. Even Reg who was probably the best of the bunch and he even apparently got sick of it.

[sully75]

yeah I've learned to do a number of things pretty well. There are the kind of people who you ask a question to and they give you a look and a snide answer. Oftentimes they know a ton of stuff and will die with that knowledge, maybe passing it on to one or two long suffereing apprentices who can suffer through their abuse. They are usually pretty miserable.

I've also worked with a lot of nice people, who when you ask them something take the time to show you the thing you want to know, or at least can tell you why your question is the wrong question. Usually they are pretty happy people and easy to be around, and usually they are pretty awesome at what they do.

Forum name "comping chords and chord progressions". Seemed like a pretty reasonable question. Thanks for the serious answers.

[Vladan]

Re: OP

When I hear the term Rhythm Changes, I think series of V of V dominant chords, so while I don't think playing minor iis is a bad idea, I also don't think it's really Rhythm Changes.

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