Turnarounds: How to turn 1 Chord into 4

[Thuemi]

Hi

Jazz Guitar Chord Turnarounds | Music Theory + Examples

I've just studied the above lesson, another great lesson of Jazz Guitar online. It contained everything I needed and was easy to understand. Thank you very much!

However there are two statements I didn't understand:

Chapter 4, last section:"Here the Em7b5 and the A7b9 are the ii and V chords leading to Dm7 ..." I agree with ii, but V would rather be a minor instead of a dominant cord in my opinion.

Chapter 5, top: "Notice that in minor keys the vi and ii chords are always m7b5 voicings ..." Here again I agree with ii, but vi is a major cord, or am I wrong?

[Runepune]

Building chords strictly from aeolian minor, you are correct.

However, the V is usually used as a dominant (major) regardless of minor tonality.

The VI in aeolian is a bVI, which would be a major chord. The VI in dorian minor would be m7b5

[M-ster]

Regarding your second observation: The minor "equivalent" to the major I, vi, ii, V (e.g., Cmaj7, A-7, D-7, G7) would be C-6, A-7b5, D-7b5, G7.

You can add extensions and substitute from there, of course.

[Thuemi]

Thank you both for your answers.It seems, that I see it to narrow. Jazz is not a science, it's an art .

[ragman1]

Chapter 4, last section:"Here the Em7b5 and the A7b9 are the ii and V chords leading to Dm7 ..." I agree with ii, but V would rather be a minor instead of a dominant cord in my opinion.

Minor chords are written in lower case (i, ii, iii, etc) and majors and dominants in upper case (I, IV, V, etc).

There are 3 minor scales - natural, harmonic, and melodic.

If you're in D natural minor the chords are Dm7, Em7b5, FM7, Gm7, Am7, BbM7, C7, Dm7 - so the ii chord is Em7b5 and the V chord is Am7.

If you're in D harmonic minor then the chords are Dm7, Em7b5, FM7, Gm7, A7, BbM7, C#o, Dm7 - so the ii is Em7b5 and the V is A7 (often played A7b9).

If you're in D melodic minor then the chords are Dm6, Em7, FM7, G7, A7, Bm7b5, C#m7b5, Dm6 - so the ii is Em7 and the V is A7.

Chapter 5, top: "Notice that in minor keys the vi and ii chords are always m7b5 voicings ..." Here again I agree with ii, but vi is a major cord, or am I wrong?

With the D natural and harmonic minor scales the sixth chord is BbM7 and should be written VI.

But if the scale was the D melodic minor then the sixth chord is a Bm7b5 (because the B is natural in the melodic minor scale) and is written with a lower case vi.

You need to be clear on which minor scale you're using.

[Thuemi]

Thank you for your clear explanations. When I read the lesson about turn aronds I had aeolian minor in mind although I know that there are two other minor scales.

I have just some proposals to your explanations:

1. I agree completly with the case "aeolian (natural) minor.

2. Harmonic minor:
You explained the HM1 mode. There we have 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-M7, which would result in the following cords: Dm7M - Em7(b5) - FM7 - Gm7 - A7 - BbM7 - C#m7(b5) (half diminished)- Dm7M.

3. Melodic minor:
You explained the MM1 mode. There we have 1-2-b3-4-5-6-M7, which would be Dm7M - Em7 - FMaj7(#5) - G7 - A7 - Bm7(b5) - C#m7(b5) - Dm7M.

Proposals in bold
Would that be ok?

[matt.guitarteacher]

There are 3 minor scales - natural, harmonic, and melodic.

If you're in D natural minor the chords are Dm7, Em7b5, FM7, Gm7, A7, BbM7, C#o, Dm7 - so the ii chord is Em7b5 and the V chord is BbM7.

nonfunctional "natural minor" would have C natural. When you raise the seven, it's really harmonic minor.

[Runepune]

You'll find that a common minor tonality in jazz is dorian though. Still, the V is nearly always a V7. Saving the dominant effect of that M7 step for the V makes it a bit calmer than melodic minor throughout

(You're right about the chords, except the vii of harmonic minor is a dim)

[bako]

nonfunctional "natural minor" would have C natural. When you raise the seven, it's really harmonic minor.

Major harmony presents with ionian as a default starting reference and is expanded upon from there.
A leading tone to the I is a given, built into the basic scale. Major harmony imports additional leading tones
to chords on different degrees within the secondary dominant scenario.

Minor harmony on the other hand is messier business. The starting reference is more of a to be determined situation. I'm not sure why you are calling "natural minor" nonfunctional.
On it's own, it functions fine in a modal kind of way. The importation of a leading tone can perhaps be viewed
as supplemental improved functionality, as either a cadential sub for b7 or a permanent replacement as in harmonic minor. Borrowing is a common occurrence.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Major harmony presents with ionian as a default starting reference and is expanded upon from there.
A leading tone to the I is a given, built into the basic scale. Major harmony imports additional leading tones
to chords on different degrees within the secondary dominant scenario.

Minor harmony on the other hand is messier business. The starting reference is more of a to be determined situation. I'm not sure why you are calling "natural minor" nonfunctional.
On it's own, it functions fine in a modal kind of way. The importation of a leading tone can perhaps be viewed
as supplemental improved functionality, as either a cadential sub for b7 or a permanent replacement as in harmonic minor. Borrowing is a common occurrence.

I often hear modal referred to as being nonfunctional. "Modal versus functional" in this context I'm used to seeing in these kind of discussions. I'm definitely not an expert .

I've heard nerdy theory Professors say that there's no such thing as "natural minor". Their idea is that if it's true minor it has raised seven , natural seven rather . Otherwise, it's Aeolian?

A lot of cerebral theoretical stuff jumps the shark when you get to trying to pin down minor.

[goldenwave77]

Personally, I think people played natural major stuff on stringed instruments...then got tired of just this sound.


Then....they discovered that starting on the 6 note, they could get a minor sound...using 1st, 3rd and 4th fingers.

Jump up one string, repeat the same fingering pattern, and now we've moved away, slightly, from the minor tonality...but, we need to return back to the original minor, and a slide (or insertion of a leading tone), makes it a more decisive resolution.

All this happens (and could have happened) without any need to name these intervals, or analyze them.

(Maybe the in-bred, half wit in Deliverance had the right idea after all....just play.)

[Bflat233]

Is this the title of the lesson? I looked at the lessons area and didn't see the one you are referring to and I'd like to give it a go. Can you point me to the link?

Thanks!

[Thuemi]

Try this link:
Jazz Guitar Chord Turnarounds | Music Theory + Examples

[bako]

I often hear modal referred to as being nonfunctional. "Modal versus functional" in this context I'm used to seeing in these kind of discussions. I'm definitely not an expert .

I hear the same things being said but I like to take a broader view of "functional".
The minor modes establish centricity around a minor I chord.
There are also modal cadences or pathways back to the I minor.
That is functional enough for me. Semantics perhaps.

[Bflat233]

Try this link:
Jazz Guitar Chord Turnarounds | Music Theory + Examples

[Thuemi]

Thank you for the turnarounds. And of course you are right:

- "And the vii chord in harmonic minor is C#dim7 (not m7b5)": I used B instead of Bb. That was wrong.

- "Also you should add the III chord as FMa7#5 to your harmonic minor list": Also this mistake I have corrected.

[ragman1]

Theumi -

I wasn't trying to spell out every chord in the melodic minor scale, it was just a simplified version. All the chords are rarely played that way in any case.

I was just answering your query about how the chords you mentioned originally were written, realising you'd mixed up your scales.

[ragman1]

By the way, I have a little puzzle for you. It's quite interesting. All the experienced players will probably answer it but, more importantly, what do you think?

You've seen song sheets before, including tunes in minor keys. You've seen all the usual chords like M7, m7, 7, 7alts, m7b5, diminished, etc etc. Occasionally you see a m/M7 chord but not a M7#5 chord very often!

But the other chord you will see very often is a m6, right? It appears all the time. We're doing the tune Stardust at the moment and there are lots in there.

Now, if you look at all the chords for the three minor scales (as above in the posts) - natural, harmonic and melodic... there are no m6 chords. There's every other type but no m6s.

Any idea why? It's just a little question :-)

[grahambop]

By the way, I have a little puzzle for you. It's quite interesting. All the experienced players will probably answer it but, more importantly, what do you think?

You've seen song sheets before, including tunes in minor keys. You've seen all the usual chords like M7, m7, 7, 7alts, m7b5, diminished, etc etc. Occasionally you see a m/M7 chord but not a M7#5 chord very often!

But the other chord you will see very often is a m6, right? It appears all the time. We're doing the tune Stardust at the moment and there are lots in there.

Now, if you look at all the chords for the three minor scales (as above in the posts) - natural, harmonic and melodic... there are no m6 chords. There's every other type but no m6s.

Any idea why? It's just a little question :-)

I might be wrong, I'm not really a scale freak, but maybe if you define your initial chord tones as 1,3,5,7 you will never encounter a 6th as you move this up through the scale? Because you are always skipping the interval after the 5th.

I guess that's why Barry Harris treats the 6th as a chord tone instead of the 7th. Then he can generate all kinds of 6th chords from a scale (because his 'starting point' is 1,3,5,6).

[Thuemi]

I guess it has to do with the avoid notes. In all three scales the 6 is an avoid note.

[ColinO]

By the way, I have a little puzzle for you. It's quite interesting. All the experienced players will probably answer it but, more importantly, what do you think?

You've seen song sheets before, including tunes in minor keys. You've seen all the usual chords like M7, m7, 7, 7alts, m7b5, diminished, etc etc. Occasionally you see a m/M7 chord but not a M7#5 chord very often!

But the other chord you will see very often is a m6, right? It appears all the time. We're doing the tune Stardust at the moment and there are lots in there.

Now, if you look at all the chords for the three minor scales (as above in the posts) - natural, harmonic and melodic... there are no m6 chords. There's every other type but no m6s.

Any idea why? It's just a little question :-)

My guess is that it has something to do with the fact that 6th chords can be thought of as inversions of 7 chords starting on the 6th scale degree. Example - Gm6=Em7b5 etc. As grahambop says, if you use the convention of naming chords using the root as the basis, you can't come up with a name because you are skipping every other note in constructing the chord.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Now, if you look at all the chords for the three minor scales (as above in the posts) - natural, harmonic and melodic... there are no m6 chords. There's every other type but no m6s.

What do you mean by "there are no minor 6ths"?

[Jonah]

I hear the same things being said but I like to take a broader view of "functional".
The minor modes establish centricity around a minor I chord.
There are also modal cadences or pathways back to the I minor.
That is functional enough for me. Semantics perhaps.

Very interesting... semantics for is a crucial point.

It's just more or less convemtional term.. 'functional' refers to tonal functions (T-S-D) and the logics of tonal finctions relations.

Not for the argument... but I believe that functional logics is a bit wider in general. It's a concept where rgere are three principal functions - not chords or scale degrees - that have some hierarchy , some vivd relations and everything in music for the moment should belong to one of these functions.

If we expand this notion... there should at least domething logically close to the notion of 'function'...

I mean the fact that VII chord is functioning like resolution to I chord does not make it 'functional tonality' yet... this kind of concept can work only on the level of form. The space and time and some musical idea is needed to establish functions and their relations.
Classical 'sonata allegro' is probablly apotheosis of functional tonality.

[Jonah]

Originally Posted by ragman1
Now, if you look at all the chords for the three minor scales (as above in the posts) - natural, harmonic and melodic... there are no m6 chords. There's every other type but no m6s.



What do you mean by "there are no minor 6ths"?

Yeh.. that's my question too...

[ragman1]

What do you mean by "there are no minor 6ths"?

I thought I'd explained it. Although the m6 chord is prevalent in music, and is called a m6 chord, if you harmonise all the scales - major and 3 minors - none of the chords generated are called a m6. It's conspicuous by its absence. Yet the m6 chord is found everywhere...

I know the notes of a m6 also comprise a m7b5 or a rootless dom9 but I don't think that really explains it. Who invented it?