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Sometimes it's hard for autodidacts to know what they should work on next , amidst all the unstructured information all over the net !
I used to play the very standard min7,maj7,dom7,min7b5 chords on standards all over the place , and i thought it was the right way to do it , right until i watched "learning tunes" lesson by bruce forman, who increased my awarness on the importance to restrict myself to play close chords with a nice voice leading in one area ! so that got me into knowing the Drop2 chords!
But i can't seem to find any structured book on comping using drop2, so i want to ask you guys is drop2 chords again just the tip of the iceberg in the comping department ? what do i need to know in order to be able to create comping choruses with different melodies etc ?
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11-29-2016 06:41 AM
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I already got the line games and celullar aproach by vincent i like 'em a lot , does this book show the shapes ? or just standard notation ?
Originally Posted by yaclaus
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Both, shapes and standard notation. You can see it in the sample chapters in the link of post #2. Originally Posted by mooncef
Robert
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There is also this book which is not quite as involved as Randy Vincent's and may be easier for some to digest (like me) Mel Bay Drop 2 Concept For Guitar: Charles H. Chapman: 9780786644834: Amazon.com: Books
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Make a melody with the top voice, and play clear rhythms. Don't neglect the 1 of the bar.
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Your comping style should complement the other instruments you are playing with.
"Drop 2 Concept" by Charles Chapman has comping studies.
Drop 2 chords are useful in some situations. Do you want to play the root?
I personally like Fareed Haque's method.
He has a really practical, simple approach.
Playing 3rds and 7ths (2-note) is a can't-miss approach.
Whether to add extensions or root/5th depends on the accompanying instruments. Playing these notes in group settings often doesn't work.
I find myself using 2-note 3rds/7ths most often.Last edited by Drumbler; 11-29-2016 at 09:06 AM.
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are drop2 chords in 4321 string set okay to play with a bass play eventhough they have the root ?
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Absolutely. While the root is probably the first note to drop if you're looking to pare things down, there's nothing wrong with having a root in a voicing, especially on the upper strings.
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Barry Harris says something funny in one of his videos about playing the root. He said he didn't know where the idea came from that no one plays the root but the bass player. He said he'd played with many a bass player who watched his (Barry's) left hand BECAUSE he was playing the roots and they weren't sure of 'em! (Or something close to that.) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Another good Randy Vincent book is on "Three-Note Voicings." Aka shell voicings. Great for comping. Although drop-2 voicings sound good, if that's all you do, they get old. Also, if you're comping for a singer, you don't want to be playing high notes all the time.
Three-note Voicings and Beyond by Randy Vincent | Sher Music Co.
Jimmy Bruno said a bass player he plays with likes for Jimmy to play Freddie Green voicings (quietly) while he, the bassist, solos.
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Yeah, there's truly so many ways to comp.
I have an impromptu gig on Friday with a sax player...just a duo. I'll play a hell of a lot of roots!
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what are the shell voicings good for i don't get it , can you please give me a use case for 'em !
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Originally Posted by mooncef
Check the examples on the link to the Randy Vincent book. Great stuff...
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hmm so you think both randy's books are worth it ? my wallet will be hit soon i guess Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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If you like videos, the Mike Moreno will help you with rhythm and this Lage Lund will help you with voicings. Originally Posted by mooncef
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Pretty highly regarded. I'm a bad one to ask, I don't think jazz can be learned from a book, really. Not as a method, anyway. But as a reference book, I mean, just that sheet on the blues is worth a lot. Pretty simple, 5-6 different fingerings, covers pretty much any type of chord, with bass movement. Learn those, and then start applying them to tons of tunes...
Mind you, you don't play that stuff with a bass player, really. Not to get a true "walk" on the bottom, because he'll be doing that. But you can play three note shells and maybe play 4 to the bar, or change every 2 beats, and that won't clash. Especially with an acoustic "rhythm guitar" tone...
Those are precisely some of the chords I'll be using this Friday.
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Another thing, of course, is that things are different with an upright bass and an electric bass. Duh. For a time there, the electric bass seemed the new normal and the future, but now a lot of upright basses are showing up in videos linked to here. If you're playing with an electric bassist who is loud and busy, well, you probably wanna steer clear. But if you're playing with an upright bassist, people tend to feel the bass line more than discern the pitches (-unless the bass is soloing). I can't say that I was ever bothered by hearing Herb Ellis play a root in a chord while Ray Brown was playing bass. But not everyone is still into that sound and feel.
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I dunno. Lage Lund voicings are nice but would I want them under my playing? Not sure. Would depend on the tune. Ears and context. You have to listen to the soloist. Originally Posted by eh6794
Lage's a great musician so he can use this stuff. But there's nothing worse than someone shoehorning fancy voicings in their comping while clashing with the soloist.
The thing is you can be a brilliant comper and not know any fancy voicings. I know guys like that. It's about supporting the musician you are playing with.
Keep it simple stupid. Whenever I forget that, my comping gets a bit contrived and unsupportive.Last edited by christianm77; 11-29-2016 at 02:33 PM.
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ATM moment I'm trying to get my student to "unlearn" his drop voicings. Learning the drops and then just improvising chords can sound really bad. 2 examples:
Dm7:
x.x.7.7.6.8
One ugly MF for this function right? As a Bbmaj9 or Gm11 it can be pretty though.
Poor voice leading
Bbm7 to Eb7
6.666.x
x.x.5.6.4.5
(that's what my student played).
Listen to records. And play simple!
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Yes I completely agree. The drop 2 thing is a great thing to practice, but it's just one set of voicings. Furthermore, not all of those chords sound great on their own. Originally Posted by yaclaus
It's not necessary to have systematic voicings all over the neck to play jazz. You can go a very long way with stock grips, musically applied. There's also a reason why stock grips are stock grips - they sound good!
In fact after a certain point many serious students of jazz guitar will practice systematic voicings in all inversions and positions etc, to develop fretboard knowledge and freedom - but there will always be some chords that sound better than others.
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Nothing wrong with learning drop 2 voicings, but there are plenty of other ways to voice chords. I confess that I've never understood why it would be helpful to classify the chords I know in this particular way.
What I would recommend a student do first is to learn every note on the fingerboard with no thought.
Then, learn the notes in the chords you use. At that point, you start seeing the individual notes within a chord rather than a grip.
Not that knowing grips isn't helpful. At high tempo with a lot of changes, you may not have time to think about anything but a grip and what fret to play it at.
I learned chords, decades ago, a completely different way. After I learned to read all over the neck, my teacher showed me a chord melody for Don't Blame Me. It started with a C6 at fret 7. My teacher diagrammed the chord and circled the root. Same for every chord in the tune. I have my fretboard diagrams showing the chords with the roots circled.
Later on, a different teacher showed me Chuck Wayne's system. The way I recall it (and this may not be exactly right) is that I learned 4 basic 7th chords on each set of 4 adjacent strings. So, for example, I learned that xx3433 was G7. From there, I learned that I could change it to a G6 by lowering the 7th a half step and a m7 lowering the 3rd etc etc.
As I recall it, it didn't take long to get most of the basic chords into my head. m6, m7b5 and 9th chords were confusing and hard to learn this way because the same voicing has three roots and, for the ninth chord, it might not even be in the grip!
I still don't know which is drop 2 or 3 or what.
This teacher also taught me usage by showing me chord melody, this time, more like Chuck Wayne's approach. He'd harmonize every note.
I found that learning chords was much easier if I encountered them in the song.
Now, when I look at a chord progression I can usually see the way the individual notes connect and find a way to play it with smooth voice leading. Depending on the complexity, I may need to work things out pretty slowly.
When I listen to Freddie Green, I'm struck by how he avoided making mud with his comping. And, he was playing lower strings. I suspect that it helped that he was playing unamplified arch top .. and pretty staccato. I don't hear any boomy bass in his sound.
But, when I hear local guys comping on gigs, I often hear mud in the low mids. The guitars are generating too much energy in that frequency range. Usually, it's best not to play the E or A strings. Or at least be careful with them. Three note chords often sound better than more-notes. And, two notes can sound best of all. I have read that Green sometimes played a single note. And, if you listen to Jim Hall, he often played one or two notes. Or held one and passed another.
So, in many situations, turning the bass down and avoiding playing too many notes or low notes will help you sound better.
If my time was limited, I would think about working on the material I described above before getting into the drop-n material.
And, the usual caveat -- however you recommend doing anything on guitar, there's a great player who did it some other way.
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Yeah for straight fours acoustic as possible helps. Many veteran players roll off the volume almost completely - you can hear Jim Hall doing this on his records. Failing that, a bass cut is an idea (perhaps use an EQ pedal?) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I also understand that FG's playing was heavily focussed around the D string.
When I comp in a more modern way, I tend to use voicings on the middle strings, and try not to mud up Mr Bass too much.
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I don't think anyone should be learning "all their drop 2's" unless they know WHY they're doing it, in the first place. There are several good reasons to do so, but but they mostly aren't related to learning to play jazz chords in the BEGINNING or learning to comp at a BASIC level.
Far too many posts in the last several years from members who have learned drop 2's and don't know what to do with them. The amount of discussion about drop 2's in the last several years has led to an unintentional beginner assumption that this is the place to start, apparently.
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I don't disagree with you, but I think the video is good because it teaches how to open your mind to voicings beyond the standard things you learn from "The Essential Drop 2's Every Jazz Guitarist Must Learn" videos and books. That video series actually does what you recommend, and that is to play for the soloist, and how to listen to your playing in context to others. Originally Posted by christianm77
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