Latin comping with a bass line

[christianm77]

Caracata caracata caracata caracata

[christianm77]

But surely the worst possible insult is - 'you play samba like you come from Sao Paolo!'

(These things are, of course relative, you my old flatmate was a gaucho and he still plays Bossa and Samba guitar better than I could hope to haha.)

[christianm77]

My Brazilian music teacher said that Blue Bossa is not a bossa, because the melody does not line up with the tamborim pattern.

Probably reversed?

[rpjazzguitar]

Probably reversed?

I don't know. It sounds enough like a bossa to me.

I can't tell if the teacher was hearing something I can't hear or just in bad mood.

There is an argument that, if you play a two bar pattern, it may reverse at bar 9.

[rcandro]

Understanding the Samba groove

This links to an analysis of where the accents are in samba based on recording a bateria and graphing the results.

The key points: they aren't even and they aren't played as written.

If you play it exactly as written and completely in time with a metronome, it won't match what the great players actually do.

The feel is so different from American jazz that Brazilians speak of an "American accent" when they hear gringo bands play.

My Brazilian music teacher said that Blue Bossa is not a bossa, because the melody does not line up with the tamborim pattern.

Another Brazilian laughed when I asked him to teach me the bossa nova rhythm. He said, "every song is different".

I completely disagree. There are many Bossa songs in which the melody doesn't line up with the tamborim. According to his point of view, The girl from Ipanema is not a Bossa nova.

About the second guy, well, bullshit that there isn't a basic rhythm. I've taught many students to play certain bossa songs exactly as Joao Gilberto do. I can say without any doubt that Joao uses the same 3 or 4 rhythmic patterns in every song he plays. As a Brazilian, I apologize for his attitude when he laughed at you. Sometimes the guy can be a good musician but a stupid human being.

[rcandro]

But surely the worst possible insult is - 'you play samba like you come from Sao Paolo!'

(These things are, of course relative, you my old flatmate was a gaucho and he still plays Bossa and Samba guitar better than I could hope to haha.)

There are good and bad sambistas in both sides of the border. The history of Sao Paolo's samba is an untold history. This is a very complicated subject which requires a long article, or even a book, to explain why many people say that the good samba is only that from Rio. Only so we can think about. Joao Bosco (one of the best samba-on-guitar player ever) is from Minas Gerais. Djavan is from Alagoas. Garoto (Animal Augusto Sardinha), one of the most respectable Brazilian guitar players, and as important as Baden Powell for us, was from Sao Paulo.
Obviously there are many amazing sambistas and guitar players from Rio.
This kind of thought doesn't represent the reality. I've heard many musicians, who don't play samba well, saying that some guy plays samba like a gringo or a Japanese. And I hate hearing this kind of statement. I don't see why foreigners wouldn't play samba well since they have a good instruction followed by an immersion in it. By the way, the same for Brazilians. Rivalry doesn't help us in anything.

[christianm77]

There are good and bad sambistas in both sides of the border. The history of Sao Paolo's samba is an untold history. This is a very complicated subject which requires a long article, or even a book, to explain why many people say that the good samba is only that from Rio. Only so we can think about. Joao Bosco (one of the best samba-on-guitar player ever) is from Minas Gerais. Djavan is from Alagoas. Garoto (Animal Augusto Sardinha), one of the most respectable Brazilian guitar players, and as important as Baden Powell for us, was from Sao Paulo.
Obviously there are many amazing sambistas and guitar players from Rio.
This kind of thought doesn't represent the reality. I've heard many musicians, who don't play samba well, saying that some guy plays samba like a gringo or a Japanese. And I hate hearing this kind of statement. I don't see why foreigners wouldn't play samba well since they have a good instruction followed by an immersion in it. By the way, the same for Brazilians. Rivalry doesn't help us in anything.

Are you from Sao Paolo then?

(Joke! Joke!)

I totally agree, and great information... just having a bit of fun. Thanks for posting :-)

[mhch]

Understanding the Samba groove

This links to an analysis of where the accents are in samba based on recording a bateria and graphing the results.

The key points: they aren't even and they aren't played as written.

Very True .. When I play the bass over a samba or even a relatively fast bossa, I tend to anticipate the (lower) note played on beat 2. This results into a better "swinging" (word intended) rythm. Try it so you can feel it.

[rcandro]

Are you from Sao Paolo then?

(Joke! Joke!)

I totally agree, and great information... just having a bit of fun. Thanks for posting :-)

Hahaha. Yes, I am. Only so you understand, I don't like this kind of generalization. There are people here in Sao Paulo who usually say bad things about people from other regions in Brazil. I won't write here what they say because I think they are stupid. I think judging people by where they were born in is stupid.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=rcandro;722914]I completely disagree. There are many Bossa songs in which the melody doesn't line up with the tamborim. According to his point of view, The girl from Ipanema is not a Bossa nova.

Interesting. I appreciate the alternate viewpoint. The teacher I was referring to (from Rio) has some strong opinions, including that Bossa Nova was a cultural movement and not a musical style (extreme, no?) and that the musical style is still samba. He usually teaches a two bar tamborim pattern for these songs, although occasionally he teaches the 1 bar pattern that Joao used on many songs.

It was a different Brazilian teacher (from Recife) who made the comment about every song being different. I have listened to Joao a lot -- that World Pacific album with 36 songs or something -- and I know you're correct. He often plays a simple one bar pattern (simple in concept, maybe not so simple to get grooving). But, I do think there's some truth to the idea. Not every song being different, but a lot of songs do have their own patterns. More generic patterns work, but don't sound like the original. He might be reacting to hearing a lot of American groups play what the Real Book charts often call "Latin" (which knowledgeable players hate) -- and the players play the same thing no matter what the original rhythm was.

[rcandro]

Interesting. I appreciate the alternate viewpoint. The teacher I was referring to (from Rio) has some strong opinions, including that Bossa Nova was a cultural movement and not a musical style (extreme, no?) and that the musical style is still samba. He usually teaches a two bar tamborim pattern for these songs, although occasionally he teaches the 1 bar pattern that Joao used on many songs.

It was a different Brazilian teacher (from Recife) who made the comment about every song being different. I have listened to Joao a lot -- that World Pacific album with 36 songs or something -- and I know you're correct. He often plays a simple one bar pattern (simple in concept, maybe not so simple to get grooving). But, I do think there's some truth to the idea. Not every song being different, but a lot of songs do have their own patterns. More generic patterns work, but don't sound like the original. He might be reacting to hearing a lot of American groups play what the Real Book charts often call "Latin" (which knowledgeable players hate) -- and the players play the same thing no matter what the original rhythm was.

Well, I have a hard time discussing about this because I have trouble using the right words in English.

I think nothing prevents a cultural movement from giving rise to certain forms of expression that, as time goes by, might become an independent way to express thoughts or musical ideas. Samba, for example, was only a piece of something bigger called as pagode. The slaves' parties where there were food, drinks, and a lot of dance and joy. Throughout history we can see that music was, for a long time, only a piece of something else. Mozart's minuets, for example, were music for dancing. The rite of springs by Stravinsky was created for a ballet. Many pieces composed by J. S. Bach were created for religious purposes.

I'd say that bossa wasn't a new rhythm, but it was certainly a new way to make music and express different ideas. That's why I don't think it's wrong to say that bossa is a musical style. Mainly if we agree that a new style usually has its innovation based on older things.

I'm not quite sure about what I'm going to say, but I believe that if we ask a traditional samba composer to tell us if bossa is samba the answer would probably be no, it isn't. The content of the lyrics are quite different, people dance samba but they don't dance bossa, there are some differences in the way the melodies are built, and, I think the most important, samba talks to the collectivity while bossa talks to the individuality. Needless to say that this is only my opinion.

[christianm77]

Well, I have a hard time discussing about this because I have trouble using the right words in English.

I think nothing prevents a cultural movement from giving rise to certain forms of expression that, as time goes by, might become an independent way to express thoughts or musical ideas. Samba, for example, was only a piece of something bigger called as pagode. The slaves' parties where there were food, drinks, and a lot of dance and joy. Throughout history we can see that music was, for a long time, only a piece of something else. Mozart's minuets, for example, were music for dancing. The rite of springs by Stravinsky was created for a ballet. Many pieces composed by J. S. Bach were created for religious purposes.

I'd say that bossa wasn't a new rhythm, but it was certainly a new way to make music and express different ideas. That's why I don't think it's wrong to say that bossa is a musical style. Mainly if we agree that a new style usually has its innovation based on older things.

I'm not quite sure about what I'm going to say, but I believe that if we ask a traditional samba composer to tell us if bossa is samba the answer would probably be no, it isn't. The content of the lyrics are quite different, people dance samba but they don't dance bossa, there are some differences in the way the melodies are built, and, I think the most important, samba talks to the collectivity while bossa talks to the individuality. Needless to say that this is only my opinion.

You express yourself very elegantly.