Joe Pass - Diminished vs Domininant Chords

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

Hey dudes,

I hear joe pass say how he likes to simplify his thinking by putting chords in chord families

major chords no matter the extension is considered a major chord

minor chords,same principle

and dominant is where i'm having a bit of trouble understanding,i mean i understand how a 1-3-5-b7 is considered dominant but why is the diminished chord included in the dominant family if it's comprised of 1-b3-b5-bb7?

[MarkRhodes]

Diminished chords are often used as substitutes for dominant 7ths. ("Dims for doms") If you look at a G7, you have G B D and F. If you look at an Ab diminished, you have Ab, B, D, and F----the same notes except a b9 instead of the root. The b9 is a common alteration in jazz.

Ab diminished is really G7b9.

Dominant 7th chords (when "functioning," that is, preparing for a return to the I chord) maximize tension; using diminished patterns over them is a good way to bring out that tension.

Lots of cool diminished patterns...

Augmented chords often substitute for minor chords, but that's another subject.

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

its funny because i just learned it this way,and everything you said is exactly in the book i learned it from,this opened a whole universe of how to look at harmony and simplify my thinking,after all,keep it simple stupid!

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

and if you want,you can go into the minor chord,augmented sub thing

[MarkRhodes]

Which book are you learning from? Maybe I learned from the same one!

[monk]

The augmented chord can be used for a dominant chord (7#5) or minor chord (minor maj7).

Augmented and diminished sounds are considered a subset of dominant.

[MarkRhodes]

The augmented chord can be used for a dominant chord (7#5) or minor chord (minor maj7).

Augmented and diminished sounds are considered a subset of dominant.

Right. And that's really why Joe Pass said there only 3 sounds: major, minor, and dominant. Where augmented and diminished chords appear (at least in his playing) they are under the umbrella of one of the the 3 types.

Thus, Ab diminished is really G7, so it's functioning as a dominant chord.

A major, minor, or dominant chord may have a sharp 5.....

[goldenwave77]

.....
and dominant is where i'm having a bit of trouble understanding,i mean i understand how a 1-3-5-b7 is considered dominant but why is the diminished chord included in the dominant family if it's comprised of 1-b3-b5-bb7?

It's not the "formula" of the type of chord, as such, i.e. by itself, that is important. It is what relationship, they have to other tones. So if you look at dim. chords and relate them back to the other tones that are being heard (melody), there will be a bunch of "tension tones"....dominant chords contain tension tones, as well, therefore one can often substitute for the other.

(See earlier post of MarkRhodes analyzing this.)

HARMONY is never a thing by itself---it is relational....it means we are juxtaposing two things against each other.

Don't get freaked out by all sorts of weird names about different scales, types of chords, modes, etc.....these are all just shorthand names attached to these different relationships.

[grahambop]

I learned all my chords from the Joe Pass chord book when I started learning jazz. I like the way Joe liked to simplify things, and that he stuck to chords that are quite playable, with no awkward stretches.

[MarkRhodes]

I learned all my chords from the Joe Pass chord book when I started learning jazz. I like the way Joe liked to simplify things, and that he stuck to chords that are quite playable, with no awkward stretches.

I've been giving that book another go lately. All very "handy" shapes, primed for moving around. (And that's another thing about dominant shapes: they repeat every 3 frets, so if Ab dim works for G7, so does B dim, D dim, and F dim.
(Augmented chords repeat every four frets---though you get a nice passing chord every 2 frets).

[edh]

"(Augmented chords repeat every four frets---though you get a nice passing chord every 2 frets). "

Thanks Mark, I didn't know that.

Also Dominant 9ths repeat every three frets. C9 -> D9 etc.

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

what about minor major 7th chords? where would that go?
1 -b3-5-7

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

i guess you just see it as a minor chord with a major seventh?

[matt.guitarteacher]

i guess you just see it as a minor chord with a major seventh?

Yeah, minor, but also has some dominant and other functions. A lot of possibilities and implications with them...

[mr. beaumont]

I think m/maj7 chords and m7b5 are interesting enough that they're worth thinking about seperately. If just for their synonyms.

Joe Pass was a great player. But he also had a very "aw shucks" attitude about what he knew, and was not a great teacher, imho.

That's not a putdown. I don't listen to anybody's music because they teach well.

[jazzy anime enthusiast]

in all honesty i do think of them sepeartely as sounds,its just construction wise i like to use this concept to organize my chords and arpeggios