Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

destinytot · 11-13-2015, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

I think your observation is dead on as regards the minor sixth concept. I find it much simpler to think in terms of flat fifths and diminished chords along with using my ears. But you don't get to spend mucho denaro on the books and methods and DVDs.

In my heart I think - much ado about nothing - but I can't say that aloud....OOOPS!

How about helping out with a quick video?

**docbop** · 11-13-2015, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hupia

I'm not too familiar with the Barry Harris concept, but I stumbled upon this and it sounded like it could be relevant to this thread:

I believe Roni is another former BH student, but in long run the Major 6 Diminished scale is the same so studying and experimenting with it should reveal the same answers. They're all different paths to the same location.

**AlainJazz** · 11-13-2015, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

I think your observation is dead on as regards the minor sixth concept. I find it much simpler to think in terms of flat fifths and diminished chords along with using my ears. But you don't get to spend mucho denaro on the books and methods and DVDs.

In my heart I think - much ado about nothing - but I can't say that aloud....OOOPS!

Targuit, I used to also think it was much ado about nothing until I spent some serious time looking at Barry Harris' concepts. It is much more than what you outline above. Add in concepts like "borrowing" and you have a harmonic treasure trove that never gets old and provides tons of movement. Ymmv but I have been playing a long time and found this method to be the best thing to liberate you from harmonic clichés.

**guitarplayer007** · 11-13-2015, 02:37 PM

AlainJazz
Could you make a video explain and showing some concepts..I to have the Roni BenHUR DVD
thx
Ken

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

How about helping out with a quick video?

I already proposed a video theme - let's all decide on a song that fits the criteria (harmonic movement, min6's or if you prefer as I do diminished chords and flat fifths) to illustrate so-called 'chord harmonic movement' and submit our respective interpretations. I think of it as voice leading, and I need no method book or Sacred Secret Harmonic theories from Planet Galactica to teach me to reproduce the necessary music. I use me ears. I transcribe. Note-for-note if you want. When I play a standard that has the requisite chord movement, I think about the bass line. My subconscious provides the correct harmony. Translation - if you can play 98% of the jazz repertoire by ear, why do you need to muddle your brain with 'theoretical mush'?

It is like CST - for kids, not adults musically speaking. "Daddy, can I use a flat fifth here or not, and what mode should I chant while playing?" "Use your ears, Junior. If it sounds like crap, probably you shouldn't do it." Joe Pass - "Don't ask me about modes...I don't know anything." Poor, Joe. If he only knew how inadequate he was....

On the other hand, if you wish to send me lots of money, I will come up with a theoretical treatise. Or better yet, advise you to devote the next decade of your life to studying Van Eps method book. Hope you live long enough.....

Anyway, I was thinking about songs that have 'chordal movement' and I decided it was practically all of them. Which did not help in narrowing potential songs for demonstration purposes. Louie, Louie .... Gloria... I'll come up with a list. How about Two for the Road? Love Mancini.

**grahambop** · 11-13-2015, 03:07 PM

Found this web page which gives some interesting details and a PDF about the Barry Harris stuff:

Spiced Up Comping Using the Barry Harris Harmonic Method

**guitarplayer007** · 11-13-2015, 03:09 PM

That's cool, everyone can make videos showing different ways they use the BH concept.

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 03:20 PM

Ok, so I plead my ignorance - what is borrowing? Let me guess - pretending your in another key, like the relative minor or.... calling the same chord a different name to confuse the rubes?

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 03:42 PM

Buddist brain buster - if you can play this song arrangement, do you need to study Barry Harris?

Chamacojesus plays the hell out of this song. I play this arrangement as well. Is there enough movement in the chords?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 11-13-2015, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

I think of it as voice leading, and I need no method book or Sacred Secret Harmonic theories from Planet Galactica to teach me to reproduce the necessary music.

what's "voice leading"? You talk theory yourself and insult other people for talking about theory. Transcription and ears are a part, but there's a way that musicians talk about playing music. Stop trolling, let people talk about what they want to talk about.

Start your own "It's just easy and natural for me" thread. Meanwhile, we're fortunate to have some real players talking this stuff here.

destinytot · 11-13-2015, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

I already proposed a video theme - let's all decide on a song that fits the criteria (harmonic movement, min6's or if you prefer as I do diminished chords and flat fifths) to illustrate so-called 'chord harmonic movement' and submit our respective interpretations. I think of it as voice leading, and I need no method book or Sacred Secret Harmonic theories from Planet Galactica to teach me to reproduce the necessary music. I use me ears. I transcribe. Note-for-note if you want. When I play a standard that has the requisite chord movement, I think about the bass line. My subconscious provides the correct harmony. Translation - if you can play 98% of the jazz repertoire by ear, why do you need to muddle your brain with 'theoretical mush'?

It is like CST - for kids, not adults musically speaking. "Daddy, can I use a flat fifth here or not, and what mode should I chant while playing?" "Use your ears, Junior. If it sounds like crap, probably you shouldn't do it." Joe Pass - "Don't ask me about modes...I don't know anything." Poor, Joe. If he only knew how inadequate he was....

On the other hand, if you wish to send me lots of money, I will come up with a theoretical treatise. Or better yet, advise you to devote the next decade of your life to studying Van Eps method book. Hope you live long enough.....

Anyway, I was thinking about songs that have 'chordal movement' and I decided it was practically all of them. Which did not help in narrowing potential songs for demonstration purposes. Louie, Louie .... Gloria... I'll come up with a list. How about Two for the Road? Love Mancini.

Nah! That's not it at all.

Thank you, Peggy Lee:

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 04:01 PM

Here's another beautiful interpretation of Morricone's Cinema Paradiso - Love Theme by another talented guitarist. Note the F#m7b5 or the Ebm6 and the C#dim 7 or...I don't know what Barry would call it . Anyway, pick the song you want. I play this one, too. So nice...

Beautiful touch, tone, and yes, chord movement here. Theorize if you like - I prefer to play.

destinytot · 11-13-2015, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Anyway, pick the song you want.

How about The Shadow of Your Smile?

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

what's "voice leading"? You talk theory yourself and insult other people for talking about theory. Transcription and ears are a part, but there's a way that musicians talk about playing music. Stop trolling, let people talk about what they want to talk about.

Start your own "It's just easy and natural for me" thread. Meanwhile, we're fortunate to have some real players talking this stuff here.

Oh, Matt! Just having a little fun! Come on! This stuff isn't brain surgery - just good music. My point is that if your ear hears the voice leading and you can play it, the theory is superfluous. In point of fact, when I notate transcriptions with my old Sibelius G7 software and then have the software analyze the notation for the chords, it always turns all my m7b5's into m6's which pisses me off and I have to manually change them.

And what do you mean "what's voice leading?" I thought you were a music teacher. Pick a song you like and we'll compare arrangements and videos. Actually that is what the OP requested. But as far as explaining it, here's mine - it sounds good with good voice leading. Or if you want, I'll send you a transcription. Mine.

**grahambop** · 11-13-2015, 04:19 PM

I haven't really looked into the Barry Harris stuff yet, but it seems to me that Wes Montgomery often harmonised his chord solos with diminished chords on the passing notes or 'weak' notes. So it seems to me that Barry's approach is not far removed from this. If it was good enough for Wes, I am interested!

**Hupia** · 11-13-2015, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

I believe Roni is another former BH student, but in long run the Major 6 Diminished scale is the same so studying and experimenting with it should reveal the same answers. They're all different paths to the same location.

Ah! Thanks for clarifying, docbop. Happy to learn I wasn't way off the mark :-)

destinytot · 11-13-2015, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Buddist brain buster - if you can play this song arrangement, do you need to study Barry Harris?

Chamacojesus plays the hell out of this song. I play this arrangement as well. Is there enough movement in the chords?

The OP specifically mentions 'creating' chord movement.

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 04:55 PM

Yes, but no one answers, "Yes, I play this arrangement, too. And I "create" the chord movement." (Though I would credit the composer.) I'm just joshing with you, but some take this too seriously. I love Barry Harris. But I love his playing most of all.

I am well aware that not everyone plays at a level that they can instantly sit down and play the two songs I posted from Mancini and Morricone. But if you do and understand the chord movement created, do you really need to spend precious time studying the concept? Seriously, this is a question.

For those who are not yet capable of playing the song "Se" - the love theme by Morricone in Cinema Paradiso - and transposing it instantly into various keys, then studying Barry Harris's tome may be worth the time you devote.

In the time from my last post, I had a discussion with my wife, made a doppio espresso, and ran through Se by ear on my classical guitar in several keys to choose a good one for vocal as well (Dm or Em for me), though I also liked C#m for purely instrumental. Edit: I just played through Josh Groban's version in Fmin on the piano along with his video on YT. Nice guitar and vocal key as well.

Let's see - last weekend I recorded The Girl From Ipanema - is that enough chord movement? If not, I'll record Se this weekend and try to get it up on YouTube on my channel. I also recorded Two For The Road a few weeks ago. I'd like to do it just as solo guitar and vocal this weekend.

I nearly had a heart attack last Friday when I tried to post wav. files of a recording for one of Irez' other threads to Dropbox (not intuitive to me in terms of file sharing) and instead found my son's entire i-Tunes uploading instead. I actually cancelled the account immediately. So this not so tech savvy guy has to do it the "old fashioned way" - on YouTube.

Anyway, Matt, sorry if my posts rubbed you the wrong way metaphorically. These songs are really good examples of Chord movement in my "humble" opinion. Since I've posted these songs, why don't we analyze on analytically if you like?

**targuit** · 11-13-2015, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Start your own "It's just easy and natural for me" thread. Meanwhile, we're fortunate to have some real players talking this stuff here.

So do any of you "REAL PLAYERS" do these tunes, Matt? You know, that is not a nice thing to say.... I'd like to hear one or two of the "REAL PLAYERS" post as well. I know that Grahambop can likely can play this stuff with his eyes closed. Actually that's how I like to play...

**grahambop** · 11-13-2015, 05:58 PM

I don't think the Barry Harris thing is so much about doing a chord melody or arrangement of a tune. For that I would probably stick largely to the chords 'as given' for that tune (with suitable extensions or voicings as required, to support the melody).

I believe it is more about how to make your comping more interesting. Suppose you were playing a tune where you had to comp 2 bars of C major behind someone else's solo. (Green Dolphin Street, perhaps?) I think Barry is giving some methods of creating melodic lines with chords during those 2 bars to make your comping more musical. But I haven't studied it yet, so that's just my initial take on it.

I do tend to play a lot by 'ear and instinct', but I also like to investigate ideas like this sometimes.

**Hupia** · 11-13-2015, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I don't think the Barry Harris thing is so much about doing a chord melody or arrangement of a tune. For that I would probably stick largely to the chords 'as given' for that tune (with suitable extensions or voicings as required, to support the melody).

I believe it is more about how to make your comping more interesting. Suppose you were playing a tune where you had to comp 2 bars of C major behind someone else's solo. (Green Dolphin Street, perhaps?) I think Barry is giving some methods of creating melodic lines with chords during those 2 bars to make your comping more musical. But I haven't studied it yet, so that's just my initial take on it.

This has been my understanding as well, although most of my exposure to the concept has been from reading this thread.

I think there's been a misunderstanding as to what "creating chord movement" refers to in this thread.

**AlainJazz** · 11-13-2015, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Ok, so I plead my ignorance - what is borrowing? Let me guess - pretending your in another key, like the relative minor or.... calling the same chord a different name to confuse the rubes?

No. The concept of "borrowing" is in a nutshell using notes from adjacent diminished chords. You can mix and match in almost endless combinations as long as you know your chord inversions really well. This brings out voicings that you usually wouldn't think of. You can also construct any chord from a m6 plus borrowed notes. Maj7, augmented, etc. they are all variations of m6 if you think about it as "borrowing" notes from other chords.

Similarly you can come up with all kinds of interesting Dom 7 chords by starting from a diminished chord and "borrowing" from adjacent m6 chords. What ends up happening is that you stop seeing tunes in terms of specific chords and instead see it as movement within a chord scale.

**guitarplayer007** · 11-13-2015, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Found this web page which gives some interesting details and a PDF about the Barry Harris stuff:

Spiced Up Comping Using the Barry Harris Harmonic Method

Watched one of your vids on youtube, very nice improv!!
Ken

**guitarplayer007** · 11-13-2015, 08:17 PM

Me doing quick Barry Harris run

**matt.guitarteacher** · 11-13-2015, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

You know, that is not a nice thing to say.... I'd like to hear one or two of the "REAL PLAYERS" post as well.

That wasn't what I was saying. No one's stopping you from posting your playing in any thread. My point was that there are guys who can play this stuff AND think it's worth talking about. Jordan, Christian, Reg, Graham, certainly not me....talk about harmonic and other musical concepts AND demonstrate that they can play.

You repeatedly imply that is somehow beneath you and demean the conversation itself. My point is: if reg et al think these conversations are worth having, who am I to say otherwise. I don't reply to about 99.9% of all threads. Jay, why do you waste your time blowing up threads with your thoughts that these things just aren't that important?

If I went to the gear forums and implied that those guys should PRACTICE and not worry so much about amp settings, might someone call that trolling? And would they have a point?