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How important do you consider it to comp with the same altered dominant as written in the changes? I've been working through Mickey Baker vol 1, and he teaches a couple of convenient altered dominant fingerings (mostly 13b5b9 and 7#5b9) and teaches to simply use whichever one is more convenient based on where you are on the fretboard. For instance, the A section of Mood Indigo has a section of Bb7 | Bb-7 Eb7#5 | Abmaj7. Using chord roots on the low E string for the Bb and Ab chords, the Mickey Baker method would have me use Eb13b5b9 (which is really more of a tritone-sub A7#9 IMO) instead of Eb7#5 for the alt chord. Is that substitution fine, or should I learn the fingerings for all the different alt chords so I can use the one written in the changes?
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06-24-2015 09:07 AM
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That sharp five is the melody note there. Not as easy to get away from it. Probably play a voicing without a fifth or address the sharp five.
In my opinion, Mickey Baker works best in learning to sub for simple changes to make them more interesting. Real books, in and of themselves, are inherently less simple than the kind of vanilla changes Mickey Baker is assuming. in the current day and age, I would think that Mickey Baker is best just taken at face value . Kind of just a way to play through the standard progression types he laid out. Really basic substitution concepts.
When the chart calls for a more specific voicing, like the one here, you have to somewhat address what's going on there specifically, or at least understand IF you could use something different and WHY. William Levitt's modern guitar method is a good book for learning to play changes out of a real book, more like they're actually written.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 06-25-2015 at 12:56 AM.
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So it's Eb7#5 because of the B natural in the melody line. That makes a lot of sense. I did notice that Baker's chords that were being substituted for were usually simple major-minor-dominant, rather than the upper structures given in the Real Book. I actually have a copy of Levitt that I haven't gotten around to opening yet; I'll have to work that into my practice routine. I badly need to work on my reading anyways.
Thanks for the response!
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The reading is cool and all, but even if you're not doing that yet, check out the "rhythm accompaniment" studies in the Leavitt. They'll quickly get you into basic comping out of a real book.
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Don't be slavish. It's good to learn a few options. Make sure that you properly internalise the sound of one thing before moving on though. There's certainly nothing wrong with learning to play altered scales on every altered chord in several progressions just to get used to it. It's pretty 'bog standard modern jazz guitar' but it's an important sound to get on top of. The melodic minor modes are great sounds - there never seems to be a bad note in those scales. Rosenwinkel uses them to DEATH for example.
Originally Posted by jtr
That said, as a swing player, Eb7#5 for me is quite a specific thing. It is an extremely common colour in early jazz. Fats Waller and Duke tunes are rife with the things.
Melodically the #5 comes from the use of the bluesy flat 3rd of the scale, Cb (B). Pay close attention to Ellington's melody on this song, and you'll see what I mean.
So you can use, duh - the blues scale.
Aside from this obviously you can use the Eb aug triad, you can use the G7#5 sound, which is great fun (even just a G7, or a Abo7 for jollies)
Of course, the whole tone scale is always up for grabs.
These kinds of moves are common in early jazz, which is where the song originated.
Of course, you can use all of the typical altered options too. Sure, E melodic minor/Eb altered is a good choice here, but a more generically, modern sound (I'd be making a point of it if I used this choice on a swing gig.)
But I like the exoticism of the augmented vibe. That G7 --> Ab movement I really dig as well. People seem think it's hip when I go Dm7 B7#5 C in a C ii-V-I (they go 'ooo' and stuff.)Last edited by christianm77; 06-25-2015 at 05:34 PM.
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Also, for a bebop approach I feel like there are stock scales for different dominants in different positions in the scale, e.g.
III7 is most often phrygian dominant, or altered
VI7 is usually phrygian dominant
II7 is usually lydian dominant
V7 - any of the usual options - V mixolydian, altered, lydian dominant, IV melodic minor also frequently used.
Study a few bebop heads, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.
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Sorry, re-reading the OP I realise you are talking about voicings rather than soloing. I think that was well answered above. I'll leave my ramblings up but hope they aren't too confusing.
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Interesting stuff. I've mostly just been using mixo for each of the chained dominants in a Rhythm Changes bridge, or alternating mixo with dorian--ie III mixo, III dorian, II mixo, II dorian, with some sort of altered or chromatic thing at the end to lead back to I. It makes sense that the different dominants have different roles, and thus receive different treatment during the solo. Thanks for the info in this post and the others; I have at least as much to learn on soloing as I do with comping! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yes I think for chain or 'round the houses' progressions, using a separate mixolydian for each is very common. Originally Posted by jtr
I'm talking more about when you have progs like I-VI7-IIm-V7, I-III7-VIm-II7-IIm-V7-I, mixes of minor and major chords. Tunes like All of Me, Rhythm Changes A, not so much Sweet Georgia Brown or Rhythm B.
That said, a phryg dom always sounds good on III7 for obvious reasons, and pretty nice on VI7 too...
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That makes more sense, I was wondering why you weren't using V/V, V/V/V, etc for the notation.
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Speaking of the Mickey Baker book, vol. 2 is worth checking out. It's not as common as vol. 1 but is more advanced.
Amazon.com: Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar: Book 2 (Ashley Publications) (9780825652813): Mickey Baker: Books
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I'm definitely planning to move on to volume 2 when I finish volume 1. I've liked most of his melody lines and his casual writing style ("you better be paying attention because I'm not going to explain this again"). Baker is definitely light on theory, but I figure I can make up for that reading and asking questions on this site.
Plus, I've just started working Levitt into my practice routine. My reading is terrible and it's been holding me back on working through Baker, so I'm attacking that as well.
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All good... But generally in Mood Indigo... the notated Eb7#5 is really Eb7b13, just the V7b13 chord from MM.
You can approach in a few ways...
Take the standard chord progression Abmaj7 ...../ Bb-7 Eb7 / all diatonic chords from Ab right, then just add the melody note and adjust.
Abmaj.... Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Eb7.... chord tones, Eb G Bb Db diatonic extensions F Ab C
..............................1 3 5 b7...............................9 11 13
so you can just # the 5th, make Bb into B... but becomes a whole tone structure... 1, 3, #5, b7... add 9 and #11
What do you do with the B in the 1st bar. it's either a Abdim chord or you add V/II, F7#11 as approach to Bb7
The typical improv approach is for Eb7 to use modal interchange and become standard V7b13 chord from Ab melodic min.
As Christian said... many moons ago... we would approach in the above mentioned approach, use standard Diatonic chords and let melody adjust chord tones... basically fill in from implied tonal center, Ab.
We use to also just add the #9 to V7b9b13 from Harmonic minor for a altered sound... but there is more logical harmonic organization... or modern and generally with jazz there is also.
Liston to the Big Band arrangement... to hear Duke's approach.
But generally unless your performing in a OGS ensemble... use modern approaches.
Don't let the sight reading thing slip... it become more and more important the better you become...
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Thanks for the reply, Reg, lots of info here. It can be a little overwhelming how many approaches there are in jazz guitar--good thing I'm 23 and have plenty of time to learn! It just occurred to me the other day that the whole tone scale fits over 7b5 and 7#5, but the melodic minor thing hadn't crossed my mind. It makes a lot of sense once you think of it as 7b13, of course that would fit the mixo b13 mode of MM. Melodic minor and whole tone are two scales that I understand in theory but I don't yet have a great feel for how they lie on the fingerboard. MM in particular seems to be essential for jazz. Another addition to the practice routine!
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I definitely hear it as either, even though the melody note is probably a b3 in the key/b6 over the V7 chord. I think of this as a real 20s/30s thing, quite stylistic. In tunes like Sin to Tell A Lie, China Town, My China Town, and Mood Indigo, I would go with #5. Originally Posted by Reg
I hear the sub V7#5 --> VII7#5. It has that slightly exotic 1920's/30's type of sound. I still think it's a very hip sound.
1920s/30s jazz harmony was in love with the movements #ivo7 --> I and all the related dominants: bVI7(#11), VII7(#5) I, IV7 I (of course), even II7 I. A lot of these older tunes can be a bit of a pig to solo on as a result.
Later on in the Berklee era much of this got regularised/rationalised out into ii-V-I's and melodic minor (so you get #ivo7 I interpreted as a ii-V-I move to iii for example) but the original harmony had a different tinge to it. Fewer ii-V's and some very interesting movement. It would be interesting to see the original sheet music for Mood Indigo.
Anyway, that's all a bit beyond the scope of the thread. Certainly, MM will work great guns, as it always does, over practically anything :-)
I don't think Duke was thinking about melodic minors when he wrote this tune. In the original '78 they solo pretty horizontally over the chords.
There's a nice diversity of approaches on this recording - check out Dukes solo, what the &*$%?
Last edited by christianm77; 06-29-2015 at 02:09 PM.
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It's interesting how modern/contemporary jazz is as defined a style as dixieland. Very specific. Originally Posted by Reg
I think Brad Meldhau said something about how there are very few distinctive voices in harmony. Duke Ellington would certainly be one of these. I would urge anyone to check out his writing all the way up from the early years to the late stuff. A lot of his voicings are so unusual and weird, they seem to defy analysis. Quite wonderful.
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yea if your going to play jazz. MM need to become very instinctive. If you need any info and applications etc... I have it down... can explain and play easily. Originally Posted by jtr
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yea Christian... it is a style, and many of the melodic, harmonic, rhythmic etc.. are very stylistic.
I didn't listen to entire take of MI, but was pretty straight harmonically, Even the 3 part...
Bmaj..A#maj Bmaj / Bb7.../
F#b6 Bbmaj / Bmaj etc...
The solo started out with Bmal7#11/ Db7#11/ and blue note II V chords back to I. Dukes playing is like his arranging, use of almost two part harmonic/ melodic performance. When I was a kid back at Berklee back in the mid 70's, took the arranging class with Herb Pomeroy call arranging in the style of Duke... double diminished voicings and lots of line writing concepts.
The only gigs I still see that style of playing is when I sub Big Band performances... older duds than me. Subbing is all I can handle... but it is cool style.
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Sounded to me like he was using Bminmaj7 as a tonic chord there on Bmaj7 (chord number 4), maybe my ears are on wrong? (I'm assuming the film is running a bit fast, the original key is likely Bb?) Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yea... maybe... I don't have perfect pitch, I just listened the one time up to first solo and fast forwarded up to duke, to catch a little, Great time. I have pretty good relative... B or Bb ? not that good, Bb seems mo betta.
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If we use Ab MM (or the fifth mode of it), then we lose the C natural of the melody. That C is a more prominent note in the melody than the B is, so don't we want an approach that keeps both of them? Using more of a diatonic approach with the added blue note seems like a more obvious approach to me. Originally Posted by Reg
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I think this is pretty much what most improvisors of the earlier era would have done, listening quickly to the period recordings. Primarily melodic playing, across the harmony. Originally Posted by jtr
But Duke takes (to my ears) a very harmonic solo. No surprise, he is a piano player.
I don't think there's a wrong and right. It's good to try a few different approaches and see what 'gels' for you. But when you take a solo on the changes, you can take more liberty with the changes. Unless there's another chordal instrument (particularly one with more chord/scale theory than ears) in which case you might need to be a bit more conservative....
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Hey jtr Originally Posted by jtr
You would be pulling from Fmm... and using Bb7#11
For the Eb7 b13... yes you could use Abmm 5th degree chord, Eb9b13... and that is part of the reason you would use it. Your creating more tension and motion and an organized harmonic concept for using the the B natural. You could also use Emm and use the 7th scale degree chord or D#7alt. (Eb7alt).
Typically with jazz harmony... your not looking for everything to line up perfectly, classical voice leading with least amount of movement etc... Keep everything as tonal as possible harmonically and let melody and improv notes not in key be approach, chromatics or any melodic embellishment... Jazz wants and used modal interchange in many ways beyond just borrowing.
And harmonic modal concepts are very common practice for creating organization for chord patterns and progressions.
So BIG NO... that is not what you want... unless you want to just play jazz tunes in a classical style. Vanilla style. Nothing wrong with... but not jazz. I understand back in the 30's, 40's and even into the 50's that was the approach for many... but jazz practice did develop their common practice... they eventually figured it out.
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That's quite a dictatorial stance at first glance. Originally Posted by Reg
But I think what you are saying is that you should learn the lingua franca - the Berklee lingua franca - if you want to play modern jazz because that's what people use. Makes sense actually, as you want to be on the bandstand, not the practice room.
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and at second galnce too...That's quite a dictatorial stance at first glance.
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