Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Here's a lesson I made on the Major7b5 arpeggio and chord demonstrating a lot of the ways it can be put to use in jazz improvisation and accompaniment.



    The sheet music can also be found and downloaded here: Maj7b5 - chords and arpeggios | Jens Larsen

    Let me know what you think and if you have any questions or suggestions.

    I hope you like it!
    Jens

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Thanks Jensl.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Cool Jensl,

    Sounds like your using the voicing as an access point for modal interchange to Melodic Minor.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by edh
    Thanks Jensl.
    Your very welcome!

    Jens

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Cool Jensl,

    Sounds like your using the voicing as an access point for modal interchange to Melodic Minor.
    Thanks Reg!

    I am not too clear on modal interchange as a concept, but yes I guess I am using the chord as a way to introduce melodic minor.

    Jens

    Edit: though I can't take credit for that idea, even if I don't remember who taught it to me

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    I prefer to see and use this chord as a dominant type of chord- rootless Dom13th, rootless min6/9, m11b5...
    It's got a cool modern sound, 2 x 4ths and a tritone. I like all the drop2 inversions of it too, a bit stretchy, but worth it!

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    You can do this with other chords too - majors, minors of various kinds. See what you come up with.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I prefer to see and use this chord as a dominant type of chord- rootless Dom13th, rootless min6/9, m11b5...
    That would be example 5, example 4 and example 3 in the lesson

    So me too!

    Jens

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    You can do this with other chords too - majors, minors of various kinds. See what you come up with.
    Yes and it's always a good theory exercise to figure out what you end up with related to the root you're playing it over.

    Jens

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Hey Jens,

    I don't know if you were around when I joined this forum.... three or four years ago, anyway one of my first few posts were about what playing in a jazz style was. What basic musical concepts guitarist needed to be aware of to basically play Jazz.

    They were about being able to hear and open four musical Doors,

    blues notes
    Melodic minor
    modal concepts
    modal interchange

    Most of the replies were... basically I was full of it etc... who really cares.
    It's been interesting watching other great players and teachers, like yourself, become aware of... or develop understandings of these same basic four jazz musical concepts.

    Please don't take my comments wrong... I've always dig your playing and posts, and I am just bringing up my thoughts on your thread... they're not directed at you Jens... sorry if they come off that way.

    Its more of a general trend on this forum...

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Jens,

    I don't know if you were around when I joined this forum.... three or four years ago, anyway one of my first few posts were about what playing in a jazz style was. What basic musical concepts guitarist needed to be aware of to basically play Jazz.

    They were about being able to hear and open four musical Doors,

    blues notes
    Melodic minor
    modal concepts
    modal interchange

    Most of the replies were... basically I was full of it etc... who really cares.
    It's been interesting watching other great players and teachers, like yourself, become aware of... or develop understandings of these same basic four jazz musical concepts.

    Please don't take my comments wrong... I've always dig your playing and posts, and I am just bringing up my thoughts on your thread... they're not directed at you Jens... sorry if they come off that way.

    Its more of a general trend on this forum...
    Hi Reg, I was probably one of the great unwashed that didn't really understand your concepts 4 years ago, but willing to give it another shot now. And maybe you've gotten better at aiming your explanations at our levels of understanding, soooooo, how about starting yet another thread that specifically deals with the "4 musical doors" ?

    I know some may suggest I go back and review your past posts, but just hoping we could start fresh with an approach that reads more like "Reg's 4 Musical Doors for Dummies". Whaddya say?

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Jens,

    I don't know if you were around when I joined this forum.... three or four years ago, anyway one of my first few posts were about what playing in a jazz style was. What basic musical concepts guitarist needed to be aware of to basically play Jazz.

    They were about being able to hear and open four musical Doors,

    blues notes
    Melodic minor
    modal concepts
    modal interchange

    Most of the replies were... basically I was full of it etc... who really cares.
    It's been interesting watching other great players and teachers, like yourself, become aware of... or develop understandings of these same basic four jazz musical concepts.

    Please don't take my comments wrong... I've always dig your playing and posts, and I am just bringing up my thoughts on your thread... they're not directed at you Jens... sorry if they come off that way.

    Its more of a general trend on this forum...
    No problem Reg!

    Nice that you think it inspires to a discussion.

    As far as what I have read about modal interchange it is borrowing chords from elsewhere? So it would include among other things all the sub dominant minor stuff but also borrowing from najor in minor etc. The concept is not alien to me at all, I was just taught to label it a little bit differently and maybe using a few more labels.

    Mostly my point with the lesson is that the Cmaj7b5 chord is a chord or arpeggio that is practical in a lot of contexts where you put it to use as something else. So to me there is no real interchange going on there? I made the lesson because that arp is not diatonic and we tend to practice those arps a little bit less (C7b5, Cmaj7b5, C7#5 etc..)

    But maybe you could explain to me if you see that differently? Because now I am curious

    Jens

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Nice lesson Jen,

    From a pedagogical perspective, I have to comment on the origins of all these materials. I believe it would be a good idea to introduce the chord (first and foremost) as a major 7th with a #11 ... simply because it is diatonic somewhere. A good starting point for students, I find.

    From seeing Cmaj(#11) as Lydian (we're in the key of G major) then your application to Em7 and F#m7(b5) chords become immediately obvious.

    Then by going through Cmaj7(#11 #5) as the third mode of melodic minor (we're in the key of A melodic minor), more of your applications become clear.

    And last, by seeing Cmaj7(#11 #9) as the sixth mode of harmonic minor (we're in the key of E harmonic minor), some more of your applications become clear.

    :-)

    It's because whenever I see the notation "maj7(b5)", I cringe a little bit.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Andre Seguin
    Nice lesson Jen,

    From a pedagogical perspective, I have to comment on the origins of all these materials. I believe it would be a good idea to introduce the chord (first and foremost) as a major 7th with a #11 ... simply because it is diatonic somewhere. A good starting point for students, I find.

    From seeing Cmaj(#11) as Lydian (we're in the key of G major) then your application to Em7 and F#m7(b5) chords become immediately obvious.

    Then by going through Cmaj7(#11 #5) as the third mode of melodic minor (we're in the key of A melodic minor), more of your applications become clear.

    And last, by seeing Cmaj7(#11 #9) as the sixth mode of harmonic minor (we're in the key of E harmonic minor), some more of your applications become clear.

    :-)

    It's because whenever I see the notation "maj7(b5)", I cringe a little bit.
    Yes, if you're using chord scale relationships, but what if you're not.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Andre Seguin
    Nice lesson Jen,

    From a pedagogical perspective, I have to comment on the origins of all these materials. I believe it would be a good idea to introduce the chord (first and foremost) as a major 7th with a #11 ... simply because it is diatonic somewhere. A good starting point for students, I find.

    From seeing Cmaj(#11) as Lydian (we're in the key of G major) then your application to Em7 and F#m7(b5) chords become immediately obvious.

    Then by going through Cmaj7(#11 #5) as the third mode of melodic minor (we're in the key of A melodic minor), more of your applications become clear.

    And last, by seeing Cmaj7(#11 #9) as the sixth mode of harmonic minor (we're in the key of E harmonic minor), some more of your applications become clear.

    :-)

    It's because whenever I see the notation "maj7(b5)", I cringe a little bit.
    Thanks Marc!

    Surely not all chords are diatonic? If you can only construct and view chords as stack of thirds in a scale you are limiting yourself quite severely. Did you ever think about that no dominant chords are diatonic to a diminished scale? or that the melodic minor does not have a dominant on the 7th degree? So both those options are impossible for dominants?

    For the rest I sort of know what you mean. Our notational system does not really work too well because when I call it Cmaj7b5 we want it to be a Gb not an F#, and since I am really only concerned with the 4 notes C E F# and B I felt that Cmaj7b5 is a better choice than Cmaj7(add#11omit5). Cmaj7#11 is a 6 note chord, and I am only working with the 4 notes here, so I said to myself: "Live with it!"

    I think (but that is only my opinion and experience of course) that if you play the examples they are fairly obvious to your ear without adding more theoretical information like #5's and #9s etc.

    Which of my examples is harmonic minor to you? Not that it's not possible, but I don't hear it like that.

    Jens

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    Yes, if you're using chord scale relationships, but what if you're not.
    Well ... if we're not using (at all) chords-scales relationships, then we're missing out on ... what, about 500 years of musical history?! :-)

    Starting from diatonic chords, scales, modes, arpeggios, (etc.) is not the *only* way to go, that's for sure. But I personally find it practical to present​ materials in lessons.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    I see what you mean Jen. You don't want to always build chords in thirds ... but let me just say this: the diminished scale is not a 7-note scale, so it's a totally different beast. The diminished clearly "hosts" a dominant chord though (right?)

    And let me just say this also: the "third" in an altered scale is actually a flat 4th ... the role is still as a 4th (we need to extend the chord to the 11th to get it), but our ears get it as a major 3rd. Also a totally different beast. Nevertheless, the dominant chord "lives there".

    In any case, we can build any synthetic 7-note scale, and just stack thirds until we have all seven notes of the scales ... and in this way we can pretty much get anything we are looking for, chords-wise. Just a matter of perspective I guess! :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by JensL

    Which of my examples is harmonic minor to you? Not that it's not possible, but I don't hear it like that.

    Jens
    Oh... I had mis-interpreted some of your examples. I understand now that in each example, you only used the maj7(b5) idea on one chord. My mistake! [Laughs]

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Andre Seguin
    I see what you mean Jen. You don't want to always build chords in thirds ... but let me just say this: the diminished scale is not a 7-note scale, so it's a totally different beast. The diminished clearly "hosts" a dominant chord though (right?)

    And let me just say this also: the "third" in an altered scale is actually a flat 4th ... the role is still as a 4th (we need to extend the chord to the 11th to get it), but our ears get it as a major 3rd. Also a totally different beast. Nevertheless, the dominant chord "lives there".

    In any case, we can build any synthetic 7-note scale, and just stack thirds until we have all seven notes of the scales ... and in this way we can pretty much get anything we are looking for, chords-wise. Just a matter of perspective I guess! :-)




    Oh... I had mis-interpreted some of your examples. I understand now that in each example, you only used the maj7(b5) idea on one chord. My mistake! [Laughs]
    Yes, there are dom7th chords in the diminished scale, and of course it's different than major and minor scale, but I was not the one who did not accept anything that was not a stack of diatonic thirds..

    So what you are telling me is that if you play an E7(b9b5) chord in other words an altered chord you hear the major 3rd as a 4th and that it is in fact a minor chord with a suspended 3rd?

    I get that you can construct scales to fit anything but, in the case of my lesson in the example where I play a Cmaj7b5 on the D7 in a II V I in Gmajor don't you just hear D7 resolving to G? I don't see a need to come up with some sort of synthetical construction for that. It is afterall just a cadence without alterations in the key of G major.

    To me the point of music theory is to describe what we hear, not to limit what we are allowed to do. Again that is just my opinion.

    Jens

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc-Andre Seguin
    Well ... if we're not using (at all) chords-scales relationships, then we're missing out on ... what, about 500 years of musical history?! :-)

    Starting from diatonic chords, scales, modes, arpeggios, (etc.) is not the *only* way to go, that's for sure. But I personally find it practical to present​ materials in lessons.

    I know music history, I studied music at college, but I think Jazz CST started in the late 1950's, my point is that Jazz CST can't be used to explain all the note choices in Jazz music. I'm all for using CST in the correct context, but I don't understand the logic in trying to make every note fit CST.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Jen and GuyBoden: right on. I agree with you both.

    My first post was just a "perspective" on showing this stuff to jazz newcomers. :-)

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Jens,

    Nice video. It entices people into the game of uncovering multiple music applications for a singular harmonic structure.

    Two paths to increase content:

    1. Continually learn new material
    2. Learn additional functions of material already known

    I would have to dig it out to remember but Mick Goodrick's "Advancing Guitarist" had a nice few pages where he created extended progressions integrating one chord in multiple functions. I believe of the 2 examples, one was centered on Ma7b5 or Ma7#11 for those who prefer.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Jens,

    Nice video. It entices people into the game of uncovering multiple music applications for a singular harmonic structure.

    Two paths to increase content:

    1. Continually learn new material
    2. Learn additional functions of material already known

    I would have to dig it out to remember but Mick Goodrick's "Advancing Guitarist" had a nice few pages where he created extended progressions integrating one chord in multiple functions. I believe of the 2 examples, one was centered on Ma7b5 or Ma7#11 for those who prefer.
    Thanks for checking it out Bako!

    I'll check the Mick Goodrick book, I would not be surprised if he had some stuff on this. It is one of the few books I have on jazz guitar stuff (and I can't recommend it enough...)

    Jens

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Reg,

    I remember. We had one member who was on a crusade to protect his rather limited musical world view
    from alleged charlatans. He also had a crew of members that seemed to think it was an ok thing to freely
    hurl insults to supplement the content of their arguments, stopping just inches short of "your mother wears army boots".

    I remember you used an expression something like a "blue note control system".
    Although I wasn't 100% sure what you meant but I found the phrase evocative.
    I took it to mean harmonizations of the unique notes that appear via blues scale usage.
    Others were troubled whether it's veracity could be verified through academic citing of past occurrence of the phrase.
    Anyway, I am glad that you stuck it out. Your perspective as an overly busy freelance musician constantly navigating new material, much of it jazz in a wide range of band situations is a very important contribution to this forum.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Ahhh... My dear friend Kevin, the life time grad student, who forgot how to play, but used
    to really be able to cut it up... at least that's how I think he use to put it.

    Yea... I basically don't take music that personal or serious, you can either play or you
    can't, or your somewhere in the middle... It's all good.

    But getting to one of Jens point about what one
    is playing. You can't really say without a reference. Jens has his ears and hears what he
    hears because of references... he relates his voicings, (played and implied), to his
    references.

    That's basically how I play all the time... I'm aware of many common practice references
    and relationships, both from years of study and years of performance. So I try and be
    aware of other references, besides what I choose to hear. Actually, I have to do that a
    lottttt...

    One of those basic four jazz concepts is being aware of modal concepts.... which note(s) in a
    collection of notes is/are going to create the rules or guidelines. Jens is using his note
    collection...Maj7b5 as reference and uses them or the b5 to help create guidelines of
    application.. or something like that. I just briefly listened and don't want to speak for
    Jens, I'll check it out again. ( I like it)

    Blue note control system... OK, it's just four words used to describe a concept. Most are
    at least aware of what blues notes are, at least with relationship to one Root. The
    control system is just that, a system... an organized set of guidelines that uses blue
    notes to help control the harmonic references, movement and relationships, just like
    any modal tonal system ...

    short version... blue notes derived from harmonic sources ....through modal interchange (MM as much as possible)

    How many of you use pentatonics derived from MM... very blue note organizationally
    friendly. (not rock blues etc)

    Hey Jens... thanks... yes to your comments. I tend to hear your voicings through... use of
    the diatonic III- chord becoming a Dom 7susb9.

    Your playing of the arpeggio... (Cma7b5)...beginning with the major 7th... B C E F# sounds like B7susb9, which is one of the standard access Doors chords to modal relationships and Melodic Min.

    I tend to use modal Interchange with a few levels of usage... Its not just borrowed
    chords, it's the options for relationship from the borrowed chord as reference.

    It's all BS when we talk about it, but it can open doors and ears for playing jazz.

    I definitely like the voicings... I also use versions very similar... tend to be part of
    chordal passages, voicings under my lead lines.

    Again thanks for posting Jens. Reg

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    I know music history, I studied music at college, but I think Jazz CST started in the late 1950's, my point is that Jazz CST can't be used to explain all the note choices in Jazz music. I'm all for using CST in the correct context, but I don't understand the logic in trying to make every note fit CST.
    My sentiments entirely.