The Double Sixteen-Bar Form

[MarkRhodes]

Another subject from Michael Lydon's book “How to Play Classic Jazz Guitar.” After blues and the 32-bar AABA song forms, another common song form in jazz is what he calls the double-sixteen. It ends up being 32 measures long but the song is made two sixteen-bar sections; the second one kicks off like the first one but veers off before bringing things back to start the whole thing over. It's a different feel than a tune with a bridge. The example Lydon uses is “All Of Me.” Standard changes run as follows.



C / C / E7 / E7 / A7 / A7 / D- / D - / E7 / E7 / A- / A- / D7 / D7 / D- / G7 <<<<16 bars


C / C / E7 / E7 / A7 / A7 / D- / D- / F / Fm6 / E- / A7 / D- / G7 / C / C <<<<< 16 bars


(“C” and “F” are understood to be Major 7 or Major 6 chords. The final two measures of C are usually played as a turnaround, such as C Ebdim / D- G7.)




I enjoyed the following paragraph Lydon wrote about this form.


>>>The best way to get a feel for the double-sixteen form is to play great songs in the form—Goody Goody, Bye, Bye, Blackbird, Fly Me To The Moon. You'll find, underneath their differences, a common loose, long-limbed quality. Instead of circling back all the time like AABAs, double-sixteens keep charging ahead—that's why jazzmen love to improvise on them, and that's why they suit optimistic, exuberant lyrics like 'when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you.'<<< p.113



In Lydon's list of must-know tunes, he lists several double-sixteens. Here are some: Black Orpheus, Days of Wine and Roses, How High The Moon, Just Friends, Out of Nowhere, and There Will Never Be Another You.


What are your favorite double-sixteens?


Can you think of others? (And not just to think of an example, but an example of a standard that a combo playing in a swing, or swing-derived style, would be expected to know?)


Since they don't have a bridge, like rhythm changes do, is your approach to soloing over them different?


[Again, Lydon's book is aimed at beginners. At least, beginners to playing “classic jazz guitar.” It is not an advanced theory book by any means.)

[monk]

I believe Mr. Lydon may have coined the term "double sixteen". I've never heard the term used before.

In the case of All of Me, the form is ABAC. The song is comprised of four eight bar strains in which the first and third eight are the same and the second and fourth eight are different. It's basically a pop music variant of the Rondo form which was used in most of the ragtime piano music.

I'll take a look at some of these other tunes, see how they lay out and get back to you.

Regards,
Jerome

P.S. To be certain that this was something that I might have overlooked in my studies, I googled "double 16 measure song form". The first and only thing that came up was a link to your post here.

[MarkRhodes]

I believe Mr. Lydon may have coined the term "double sixteen". I've never heard the term used before.

In the case of All of Me, the form is ABAC. The song is comprised of four eight bar strains in which the first and third eight are the same and the second and fourth eight are different. It's basically a pop music variant of the Rondo form which was used in most of the ragtime piano music.

I hadn't heard that term before either. Lydon lives and works in New York and I assumed it was a common term among the "cats" he played with.

What I like about this term is that it stresses something important: the headlong movement rather than the constant circling back. I agree one can see "All of Me" as ABAC but the "A" here is not at all like the "A" of, say, "I Got Rhythm".

I think this is why the double-sixteen works without a bridge. (And for players putting together a set list, it's good to keep in mind that tunes without bridges are good to sprinkle among tunes that have them. )

[MarkRhodes]

Let's listen to some of these tunes.
Here's Peggy Lee doing "Goody Goody". (Nice swing-style guitar comping here.) Sinatra did this a good bit faster, and I think Benny Goodman did too, but this also has a guitar solo, so that settles that....

[MarkRhodes]

Chet Baker's "There Will Never Be Another You" is my favorite version of the tune. This seems to be on everyone's must-know list.

And here's Duke Robillard playing "All of Me." (He teaches this on the Sonic Junction site. The tune and his basic approach, but not this particular performance.)

[MarkRhodes]

Julie London doing "Bye, Bye, Blackbird" in Japan with the Bobby Troup Quintet back in 1964. She does something to me....

[paulkogut]

I recall a story about some Chicago musicians from the Andy's scene in the early 1980's (I can't recall the musicians involved, maybe Barrett Deems?) Anyhow, the one cat arrives to the gig after hearing about a highway on-ramp construction disaster in nearby Gary, and asks "Man, did you hear about the bridge in Indiana?" The second cat pauses, considers the question and replies "There's no bridge in 'Indiana'........"

I've not heard the term 'double sixteen', either. Usually, if there's a discussion of the form of tunes like Back Home Again In Indiana (Donna Lee), Green Dolphin Street, etc it's ABAC. There are many different chord progressions, but I'm not sure how the A sections of All of Me and I Got Rhythm differ fundamentally in terms of a discussion of form. And Bye Bye Blackbird seems like an AABA of sorts,if you consider the I and the V7 to be two halves of the same tonality, (kind of like Secret Love), but it's for sure not ABAC or 'double sixteen'.

There are a few AABA tunes, like I Hear A Rhapsody, that I feel I can open up on, but a lot of them, like Rhythm or Cherokee make me feel claustrophobic. I can play freer on an ABAC like Wine and Roses or Tones For Joan's Bones, and I really dig the more through-composed forms like Stella, Windows and Falling Grace.

PK

[MarkRhodes]

Well, it seems the thing to do is to write Michael Lydon and ask if he would care to explain himself!
This, I have done.
Thanks for all the input guys.
"There's no bridge in Indiana." Love that. ;o)

[monk]

Mark,
I've given a few of these tunes a quick once over using multiple reference sources when possible.

Here are my findings:

There Will Never Be Another You
Out of Nowhere
Days of Wine and Roses
All of these tunes fit the ABAC form.

Just Friends
How High The Moon
These appear to be ABAB'. There is a slight difference in melody in the last four measures of the fourth strain. One might argue that it's enough difference to label the last eight C, in which case they are also ABAC.

Bye Bye Blackbird
ABCA'
The last eight is slightly different from the first eight but not enough, IMO, to label it ABCD.

Black Orpheus, Mahna de Carnavale, A Day in the Life of a Fool
Here we have a 37 measure tune which looks to be ABA'C plus the five measure tag.

Fly Me to the Moon
A 48 measure tune ABAB'AB"

In theory and composition classes slight differences in otherwise similar sections are noted by the addition of small numbers above right of the section. Not having the ability to do that I've used the apostrophe and quotation mark to denote the slight difference in otherwise similar measures.

While the connotation of double 16 measure songs is certainly a catchy phrase, I think that looking at tunes in this manner is antithetical to the concept of reducing songs to their smallest, most easily assimilated form. Reducing the the 32 bar song form to four 8 measure sections makes it easier to learn the melody, harmony and ultimately the whole form. Similarly thinking of ABAC songs in the same manner makes it easier to learn the whole by first tackling the things that are the same and the things that are different.
Regards,
Jerome

[coolvinny]

That Old Feeling
I'll Close my Eyes

[MarkRhodes]

No word back yet from Michael Lydon, but I have found out a bit more about him. He wrote a highly regarded biography of Ray Charles in 1995 (-which was updated later to include the rest of Ray's life). He's also written a good bit about rock music.

I have invited him to come here and tell us where got (or whether he coined) the term "double-sixteen." I hope he does. Seems like an interesting guy, obviously loves classic jazz guitar, and he can write. Who could ask for anything more?

As for "double-sixteens", I think of this as one.

[srlank]

No word back yet from Michael Lydon, but I have found out a bit more about him. He wrote a highly regarded biography of Ray Charles in 1995 (-which was updated later to include the rest of Ray's life). He's also written a good bit about rock music.

I have invited him to come here and tell us where got (or whether he coined) the term "double-sixteen." I hope he does. Seems like an interesting guy, obviously loves classic jazz guitar, and he can write. Who could ask for anything more?

As for "double-sixteens", I think of this as one.

I couldn't get that one to download on my iphone (illegal platform), but was able to get this one.

This tune seems to match most closely to your definition in the OP, but what I know about form is pretty minimal...just stuff like AABA, ABAC, etc. So this thread has been pretty cool to follow.

[MarkRhodes]

I couldn't get that one to download on my iphone (illegal platform), but was able to get this one.
This tune seems to match most closely to your definition in the OP, but what I know about form is pretty minimal...just stuff like AABA, ABAC, etc. So this thread has been pretty cool to follow.

Thanks for the video of the solo! That was neat to watch.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

+1. Chet could make half notes swing.

[MarkRhodes]

Okay, gang, Michael Lydon has answered the call!

He sent me the following email (and as you will read therein, gave his permission for me to share it here.)

>>>>Dear Mark,



Thanks for writing!! I am delighted that my "Classic Jazz Guitar" book has made it into your Jazz Guitar Online forum, and the responses of your community are fascinating.


Here's my response, and please do put it out there in your Forum--there's no right or wrong in all of this: whatever works to help each of us play well, with feeling and spirit, that's what's right!!


I made up the phrase "double sixteen" when I was an apprentice in a jazz band, working like a dog to boil down jazz songs to their memorable essence--before then I'd learned songs one-by-one. Now I was learning to hear AABA songs, noting that "Ain't Misbehavin" and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" have the same A section (chordwise, that is) and that countless songs had "Rhythm bridges."


I began to see that many, many songs--"All of Me," "Wine and Roses," "When You're Smiling," etc etc, had long opening sections which then nearly repeated except for a twist toward the end that lead to a turn around and a new chorus.


Soon I saw that this long opening generally had 16 bars and the second section had 16 bars too. So I started calling them "double sixteens." I never thought of them as ABAC, because for me the big difference was that they were long form songs, that they weren't broken up into the eight-bar chunks of AABA songs. Getting the long form flow, both in comping and soloing, that felt like the musical goal the song's composer was after.


I also sense the composer's long form intention in the melody and lyrics of double sixteens--their melodies and words flow with the long form, not broken up into eight-bar units like AABA songs.


So "double sixteen" works for me, and if it helps any of you play swinging jazz, hurray. BTW, I came up with the name "double sixteen"on my own, but maybe some one else came up with it decades ago.


Go, cats, go!! Glad to be part of your Forum!


Michael


(Now I'm going to see if I can find how you used "The Magic Sequence," and how your followers reacted!!) <<<<

[MarkRhodes]

Welcome aboard, Michael Lydon!

[kamlapati]

Great concept. I love the term and the idea. I've used the term "ABAC" for years but the new term is good because it also conveys that sense of movement that these tunes have. Thanks all.

[MarkRhodes]

Great concept. I love the term and the idea. I've used the term "ABAC" for years but the new term is good because it also conveys that sense of movement that these tunes have. Thanks all.

I'm glad you said that.
Although I don't mind using numbers and letters, I don't find AABC or ABAB(prime) any more helpful in learning the chords to a progression. What Michael is getting at is how the first sixteen bars are one section, not one section twice (as in AA) or two different sections. (AB) It may be easier to appreciate this when thinking of the lyrics.

Think of "I Got Rhythm." The first two As are interchangeable vocally. (This also goes for the last A) Each A ends with 'who could ask for anything more?' In this context, the B is like a chorus in a pop song (-the part the breaks up the routine and gets you ready for more of the routine!) A lot of AA songs are that way, with a phrase repeating every eight bars. ("...that Satin doll..." "Ain't misbehavin....")

But the double-sixteens are more headlong. They feel that way to me.

[Danny W.]

It's pretty standard to refer to these as ABAC forms, but in either case Indian Summer is a great tune:

Danny W.

[MarkRhodes]

It's pretty standard to refer to these as ABAC forms, but in either case Indian Summer is a great tune:.

I agree. It is standard. I just don't see that it is much help in learning a tune. I think "double sixteen" captures something a tune that ABAC doesn't. But that's me.

[Danny W.]

I agree. It is standard. I just don't see that it is much help in learning a tune. I think "double sixteen" captures something a tune that ABAC doesn't. But that's me.

ABAC tells you that the first and third eight bars are the same, while the second and fourth are different and different from each other, while "Double Sixteen" tells you it's a 32-bar tune and nothing more.

What would you call an AABA tune in this nomenclature?

Danny W.

[MarkRhodes]

ABAC tells you that the first and third eight bars are the same, while the second and fourth are different and different from each other, while "Double Sixteen" tells you it's a 32-bar tune and nothing more.

What would you call an AABA tune in this nomenclature?

An AABA tune would be just that. A

What Lydon perceived----why he coined the term in the first place---was that AABA tunes are tunes in four 8-bar parts that frequently cycle back. But a "double sixteen" doesn't do that. The second eight bars combine with the first to make the song's first part. (In an AABA, the first sixteen bars are the first eight bars twice.) The song feels different because it runs differently. It's why double-sixteens don't need a bridge (and why AABA tunes do.)

But it's not like anyone has to use the term who dislikes it or finds it unhelpful.

[Danny W.]

An AABA tune would be just that. A

What Lydon perceived----why he coined the term in the first place---was that AABA tunes are tunes in four 8-bar parts that frequently cycle back. But a "double sixteen" doesn't do that. The second eight bars combine with the first to make the song's first part. (In an AABA, the first sixteen bars are the first eight bars twice.) The song feels different because it runs differently. It's why double-sixteens don't need a bridge (and why AABA tunes do.)

But it's not like anyone has to use the term who dislikes it or finds it unhelpful.

It's just that it's unnecessary to make up names for forms that are already easily described. The use of simple letters makes it possible to describe any song form without making up artificial categories that have to be individually explained.

Note that in an AABA tune, the first two sets of eight bars are rarely identical and also make up the songs first part, and that AABA tunes don't "need" a bridge, they have a bridge. There are songs that are just AA AA like Summertime, that seem to survive quite nicely without a bridge but are not double sixteen

Danny W

[paulkogut]

There was a run of Mick Goodrick articles in c.90's Guitar Player Magazines. He was working with a set of voicings, and found what he was calling the structures (three part fourth voicings over bass notes?) was cumbersome to think about, so he decided to name the structures Fred and Jane. In the spirit of that, whatever you name something to give you a better handle on playing is fair game. But beyond the fact that "double sixteen" is not standard bandstand terminology, it's somewhat misleading because bars 9-16 and 25-32 differ from each other harmonically(either slightly or significantly, depending on the tune), unlike tunes ( 'new' Milestones) with actual sixteen bar sections.

PK

[MarkRhodes]

It's just that it's unnecessary to make up names for forms that are already easily described.

I quite agree this is not necessary. It is a choice Michael Lydon made. I like it; you don't. That's fine by me (and him too, I'm sure.)